Another Magic Rhythm?

[Antometrios 0]

This past summer I went to a festival and met a fellow Dalarafan. He was glad to see a young person such as myself who appreciated the greatest Greek singer rather than the prettiest. At any rate, he asked what songs I'd first heard that made me interested in him, to which I responded Stin Alana and Tou Votanikou O Mangas. He said, "Ah, the zeibekika, eh?" I shrugged. I knew that the former song was a zeibekiko, but I didn't think Tou Votanikou O Mangas was; he gave me two free CDs (he worked at the music stand) in addition to the one I was buying, so I didn't argue.

Okay, so anyway, the following are some songs with a similar beat, if I'm not mistaken: Tou Votanikou O Mangas, Stou Thoma, Harokopou 1942-1953 (Oh, I love that one, but I can't find a translation--hint, hint). I also noticed that Haidhari seemed to have that rhythm, if a little slower, but then one day I noticed that it was in fact a zeibekiko (just not an obvious one). This blew my mind because I realized that there was a relationship between these songs and zeibekika--namely 9/8 rhythm (is that right?).

To compare ...

standard zeibekiko 1:

+_+++_+_+_+++_+_+_

standard zeibekiko 2:

++_++_+_++_++_+_+_

mystery rhythm:

+___+___+___+_+_+_

beats per measure:

1_2_3_4_5_6_7_8_9_

(HOPEFULLY that makes sense to you)

Anyone care to shed further light on this relationship if there is one? I love zeibekiko, and I love this mysterious rhythm, which I've also found in the music of other cultures going back as far as the Middle Ages. It makes me want to dance I dunno what. Is there a dance for it? Thanks for your time.

[francois 4]

You can also find zeibekiko-like rythms in Mozart's works.

[celeste 0]

Can I ask a very stupid and ignorant question? Could anyone explain the difference between Zembetiko, Rembetiko and Laiko. And whatever other Greek music genres? For most of you it may be crystal clear but for those who live in a country like mine, where these words belong only to the knowledge of a happy few, sometimes it's rather confusing. Or is there a topic in this forum about this? The Smyrnaiko is easy to recognize though.

Thanks!

[Kate 42]

I really love 9/8 time, although I've almost completely given up hope of ever understanding it - so thank you Antometrios for the information - it has helped a lot. Celeste, there has been a lot of discussion about rhythms on the forum. The most helpful I think was this from Nikolas, a long time ago [url=http://www.dalaras.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=15&t=277 (apologies if this doesn't work, I've completely forgotten how to post links - anyway its the very first post in Ελληνική Μουσική - Greek Music)

When I was in Athens recently I bought a brilliant CD (for those like me who are still learning) called 'Στροφές στα 9/8 18 ζεϊμπέκικα που γράψανε ιστορία' which includes

Βρέχει φωτιά στη στράτα μου (Πλέσσας/Παπαδόπουλος) Διονυσίου

Συννεφιασμένη Κυριακή (Τσιτσάνης) Μπέλλου

Δεν θα ξανάγαπισω (Λοίζος/Παπαδόπουλος) Καζαντζίδης

Νύχτωσε χωρίς φεγγάρι (Καλδάρας) Πουλόπουλος

Τα λερώμενα ταπαυτά (Τσιτσάνης) Γλυκερία

Τώρα που φέυγω απτη ζωή (Καζαντζίδης) Καζαντζίδης

Απόψε κάνεις μπαμ (Τσιτσάνης) Νίνου/Τσιτσάνης

Χωρίσαμε ενα δειλινό (Τσιτσάνης) Μπέλλου

Πριν το χάραμα μοναχός (Παπαϊωάννου/Βασιλειάδη) Βαρδής/Γκρέυ

Πρώτη φορά (Πλέσσας/Παπαδόπουλος) Κουμιώτη

It's been my constant companion for some time now, and I thoroughly recommend it.

[Antometrios 0]

::sigh::

Come on ... was anyone alive when these songs came out? Weren't they played during parties at some point? Did people just listen and tap their toes, or is there some kind of dance to go along with this rhythm? Doesn't anyone know?

On another note, I'm interested in hearing some Mozart zeibekika. Any suggestions, Francois? I am intrigued.

Kate, I am by no means an expert on Greek rhythms or even music in general. In fact, I have only just begun exploring notation and such. All I mean to say is that anything I write hopefully is accurate, but please, don't quote me. I will agree that 9/8 is awesome.

... and I just had de ja vu....

[francois 4]

::sigh::

Come on ... was anyone alive when these songs came out? Weren't they played during parties at some point? Did people just listen and tap their toes, or is there some kind of dance to go along with this rhythm? Doesn't anyone know?

On another note, I'm interested in hearing some Mozart zeibekika. Any suggestions, Francois? I am intrigued.

Antometrios, just listen to Mozart's works, even the most famous ones!!! You will understand... (but you have to take the time to listen...)

As for the zeibekika Kate has referred to, they are some of the best ones! What if most of us weren't born (or alive ) when these songs came out? I just don't understand your point (or do I understand it too well? )...

[celeste 0]

thanks, Kate.

[Antometrios 0]

I will look up Mozart, of course, Francois What I meant in reference to being alive when the songs were released is this: I would imagine that they were very popular and played, for example, at parties, or whenever people got together to dance. Now, when we hear a song like, say, Mandili Kalamatiano, we dance kalamatiano. When someone back then played Harokopou 1942-1953 ... what did the people do? Or Stou Thoma is probably a better example. That song screams, "Dance, you fools!" ... but what do they dance? When I get married (if I get married--no luck with the ladies, I'm afraid ), I'm going to sing these songs and expect my guests to dance (unless Mr. Giorgio shows up and does the honors, of course ). What am I going to say--syrto ... tsamiko ... zeibekiko? What? :blink:

[Christo 9]

At any rate, he asked what songs I'd first heard that made me interested in him, to which I responded Stin Alana and Tou Votanikou O Mangas. He said, "Ah, the zeibekika, eh?" I shrugged. I knew that the former song was a zeibekiko, but I didn't think Tou Votanikou O Mangas was;

Okay, so anyway, the following are some songs with a similar beat, if I'm not mistaken: Tou Votanikou O Mangas, Stou Thoma, Harokopou 1942-1953 (Oh, I love that one, but I can't find a translation--hint, hint). I also noticed that Haidhari seemed to have that rhythm, if a little slower, but then one day I noticed that it was in fact a zeibekiko (just not an obvious one). This blew my mind because I realized that there was a relationship between these songs and zeibekika--namely 9/8 rhythm (is that right?).

To compare ...

standard zeibekiko 1:

+_+++_+_+_+++_+_+_

standard zeibekiko 2:

++_++_+_++_++_+_+_

mystery rhythm:

+___+___+___+_+_+_

beats per measure:

1_2_3_4_5_6_7_8_9_

(HOPEFULLY that makes sense to you)

Anyone care to shed further light on this relationship if there is one? I love zeibekiko, and I love this mysterious rhythm, which I've also found in the music of other cultures going back as far as the Middle Ages. It makes me want to dance I dunno what. Is there a dance for it? Thanks for your time.

Andometrios

Apologies I didn't reply earlier

Some of these topics in the forum do have an unfortunate

happenstance to disappear right away as more new topics are brung up in the same category.

But in any event to try and answer your question here an now,

You are correct in that "TOU VOTANIKOU O MANGAS & STOU THOMA, HARAKOPOU" are all from the 9/8 family of rhythm

However,

they are broken down far more so then just being interpreted as Zembeikiko. Only songs like:

Alana, Paraponemena Logia, Nikterida & Nichtose Horis Fengari, etc., are of the Zembeikiko family or genre.

But for the song of: Tou Votaniko, Stou Thoma, etc.,

are how we call & define it in nightclubs here in the states as:

KAMILERIKO

A Kamileriko is a slow interpretation of whats called

"KARSILAMA"

And

a Karsilama is borrowed from Turkish and that too is also

9/8, but counted differently like 1 2, 1 2, 12, 123

instead of 12, & 3 4, 5 6, & 7 8 9

check out some of the Jazz musicians work

Dave Brubecker and you'll see what I mean.

He visited in Turkey back in the 60's and recorded some Jazz tunes

in this beat.

Confused yet?

Check out my topic under Greek Rhythms and time signatures

as it was I that started that discussion on Greek Beats and their Rhythms.

You may have to do a search first in order to find as evidently it too got buried in the forum among all the other great topics of discussion here.

:blink:

[Antometrios 0]

Christo, thank you for your confirmation and elaboration! I will see out your topic presently!