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Geske

the pro's and con's of live recording

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I've heard some friends say, recently, that Dalaras is releasing too many live recordings, that too many live recordings are being released in general, and that it's not a good thing.

I have heard others say that with today's technology, the live recordings can be done so well that Dalaras might as well quit the studio altogether.

I thought the subject interesting enough to deserve a bit of thought and/or discussion, preferably intelligent - if any be available.

A few weeks ago, I re-arranged my shelf of Dalaras cd's. It used to be sorted with the live on one side, the rest on the other, chronologically. Now I put them all in chronological order.

Why? Well, from the first live (Ta Tragoudia Mou), and there is maybe one live record every 5 years of so, maybe every 3 - until, from Iera Odos on, they come fast, one after the other, and I found that 1) the "live" side of the shelf is now growing fast than the other and 2) the difference in sound quality is disappearing.

If the recording technology, today, had been what it was when "τα τραγούδια μου" was released, I think Dalaras might have gone into the studio to do the Vamvakaris and/or the Tsitsanis songs. I don't mean he would not have done the concerts! I mean he would not have released live recordings, but either studio ones, or none - for sound-quality reasons. I don't know, I'm guessing, I wish someone would ask him.

Generally, why do people release live recordings?

1) because it's a quick and easy way to re-use alreday-known, already-recorded songs and make a little extra money and it looks good in the discography.

2) because it's a way of preserving the atmosphere and the interpretations that can not be recreated in the studio.

3) because it's a way of putting on record a concert programme that one has no time or means to go and re-create in the studio.

I've heard 1) said about Apo Kardias, and I disagree from the heart. I think it is 2) that is applicable. Very, very applicable. (Excuse me a minute while I go put it in the player).

As for the latest: Mazi, Vamvakaris, Tsitsanis... as far as I can understand, both 2) and 3) apply. Each would be a sufficient reason by itself, and they both apply.

Come to think of it, if we were a few years farther on, and the dvd were more common and cheaper, I have a feeling that Dalaras might have liked to release the "Hommage" cd's on dvd. I don't know, it just seems appropriate to the material. I don't think he's much interested in releasing visual material, he's too much a musician (video clips never were his favourite art-form either) but these concerts are "just concerts", they are... do I know, a sign, a reminder, a gift from the past, the gift of a piece history...

:blink: Does anyone know what I am talking about?

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Τα Live του Νταλάρα είναι όντως πολλά και μάλιστα οι συναυλιακές επιλογές του των τελευταίων χρόνων (επιλεγμένες εμφανίσεις με διαφορετικό αντικείμενο κάθε φορά - ειδικά αφιερώματα) συνέτειναν στο να προκύψουν πολλοί ζωντανά ηχογραφημένοι δίσκοι σε σύντομο χρονικό διάστημα. Παρακάτω έχω έναν κατάλογο που περιλαμβάνει τους προσωπικούς live δίσκους του Νταλάρα καθώς και τις live συμμετοχές. Δεν έχω συμπεριλάβει maxi-lp και cd-single, τα τραγούδια των οποίων ενσωματώθηκαν αργότερα σε κανονικά album:

01) 1983 : Live Orfeas - Ta Tragoudia Mou

02) 1985-86 (1987) : Live Zontanes Hxografiseis (Peroke-Olympia-SEF) (& 1988: Live Recordings)

03) 1988 : Live Seirios - To Elliniko Prosopo

04) 1988 : Live Pallas

05) 1988 : Live Hrodeio - Aksion Esti

06) 1989 : Live Naos Ag. Dionysiou - Misa Criolla

07) 1991 : Live Attikon (me Papakonstantinou)

08) 1992 : Live Olympion (An Yparxei Logos)

09) 1995 : Live Hrodeio - Metropolitan (Theodorakis Tribute)

10) 1995 (1998) : Live Frankfurt - Unplugged

11) 1997 : Live Iera Odos I

12) 1997 (1998) : Live Megaro Mousikis - Ymnoi Aggelon

13) 1997 (1999) : Live Israel

14) 1997 (1998) : Live Iera Odos II

15) 2001 (2004) : Live Megaro Mousikis - Tsitsanis (O,ti ki an pw)

16) 2002 : Live Zygos - Apo Kardias

17) 2002 (2003) : Live Syros - Vamvakaris

18) 2002 (2003) : Live Megaro Mousikis - Mazi

Epipleon sto Mousiko Kouti, yparxoun 2 live apo to Palais De Sports to 1996

enw yparxei kai to Live tou 2001 (released 2003) me tin Emma Shapplin sto Hrodeio

Live Symmetoxes:

19) 1985: Live Olympic Stadium (Loizos Tribute)

20) 1986: Live Lykavittos (Tsimentenio Konserto - Termites)

21) 1987: Live Nikolopoulos

22) 1988: Live Hrodeio - Karaindrou

23) 1992: Live Jethro Tull

24) 2000 (2001): Live Megaro Mousikis - Paizontas me 2 Orxistres (Tsaknis)

25) 2002: Live SEF - Gia To Grigori

Θα επανέρθω με τη γνώμη μου πάνω σε αυτά που έθεσε η Geeske σε λίγο! :)

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Well put Geske.

I like what you had to say and I agree wholeheartedly with what you think too.

But let me ask you in reference to your quote:

"I have a feeling that Dalaras might have liked to release the "Hommage" cd's on dvd."

I'm not sure what you mean here by the word Hommage?

Also just to point out, yes it does look like Dalaras is releasing more Live recordings now then he is in the Studio. Is that too much of a good thing? or is that Bad?

Does this mean he will not be recording in the studio again for some time to come?

I should hope not.

But if the true can be said about the former (better Recording Technology to record Live) then the the same must hold also true for the latter as well (in the Studio)

There are devices and products now to make the recordings in the studio sound just as good and magical then there ever was before.

Just Look at the song "H Asphaltos pou Trehi" as an example'

How many voices alone does Dalaras sing in the background?

High, Low, Mid, Front and Back vocals.

An Incredible sound for re-inventing the Wheel to your average Zembekiko with giving it a Modern Rock Sound to it from the Heavy Distortion on the Guitar.

2 Thumbs up

Gioryio mou keep them coming please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

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Geske, to my mind your first point seems to be the nearest to reality:

"1) because it's a quick and easy way to re-use already-known, already-recorded songs and make a little extra money and it looks good in the discography."

This in combination with another aspect you did not mention:

There is obviously a terrible lack of new material (= new songs) in Greek music! (The possible reasons for this bad situation would be an own topic.)

But singers want to continue their career. So what happens? They recycle old material (either from their own repertoire, either from the repertoire of other singers; either in a more or less authentic interpretation, either in "modern" arrangements; either in studio recordings, either in performing and recording live concerts).

And I really wonder how it is possible that obviously for the majority of the Greek listeners this seems to be enough. I wonder because for whole decades Greece was a country that produced permanently new songs, new records with wonderful music (and lyrics). Formerly you could say that every singer produced usually one LP/CD per year (and not live recordings but studio recordings). In the meantime many important singers disappeared completely or almost completely (e.g. Mitsias, Poulopoulos, Diamandi etc.). And concerning the remaining singers, it may take 2 or 3 years (or even more) until they publish a new (studio-)record and then this record is bad or in the best case average. Concerning my taste, of course this applies also and even especially to singers like Dalaras or Alexiou. (A for me pleasant exception in the field of the "veterans" seems to be Parios; perhaps also Voskopoulos but I do not know well enough his recent productions.)

Do listeners not realize this huge difference between the situation in the 70ies, 80ies (partly perhaps still even in the 90ies) on the one hand and today on the other?

For me, what is happening (or better: what is not happening) in the field of Greek music today, makes it for me more and more uninteresting to listen to it (with the exception of perhaps one or two songs on many CDs, but even these CDs are more the productions of so-called "commercial" singers).

Personally, for different reasons I do not appreciate so much live recordings. They may at least up to a certain degree be a good possibility to present to the listener the atmosphere of a concert, they may show him a little bit of the "chemistry" between the artist and the visitors of the concert. That's to my mind more or less the only virtue of live recordings. A virtue that cannot justify the permanent production of such records in order to fill the vacuum that is caused by the unability or unwillingness to produce something new.

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There is obviously a terrible lack of new material (= new songs) in Greek music! (The possible reasons for this bad situation would be an own topic.)

Shortly to it:

Where is Stavros Kujumtzis now?

Giannis Spanos? (I hope, they both are still alive)

how could it happen, that the Giannis Kalatzis' career was stopped so early?

and when you see Lefteris Papadopoulos, he has still more things to say that many of the outstanding - younger - guests together! (this I told already in a topic about the latest "Koita, ti ekanes" with Giorgos Dalaras).

I am convinced, these three-four people (+ Dounias, Kokotas, Kalogiannis, Parios, Poulopoulos, Mosxoliou, Galani...continue this list, if you will) mentioned before could make still everything on the highest level, if they were "allowed" to.

With this, simplified, "allowed" this another topic suggested by Michael could begin.

And just the outstanding Giannis Kotsiras as a single chance of Greek music to do something new, apart from the remarkable interpretations of the older things? This one person is too little, I guess.....

:mad::mad::mad::(:(:(:confused::confused::confused:

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Olga, in order not to interrupt here the discussion about pro's and con's of live recordings, I will quote your above posting and answer to it in the topic "Press conference (for the release of his remastered CDs)" (Thread: Τηλεοπτικές εμφανίσεις και συνεντεύξεις - TV appearances and interviews) from last October/November; because there is the place where already started the discussion about these aspects (partly in English, partly in Greece).

I hope, this link leads to the topic:

http://www.dalaras.com/forum/index.php?s=3...16&t=1547&st=20

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Christo (Thessaloniki) thanks a HEAP for posting the list. I was too lazy to look up the facts properly...

Christo (Detroit) it's your PM the other day that made me finally post this topic, which had been on my mind a while.

By "Hommage" I mean "Afieroma", specifically the recent "Afieroma sto Vamvakari" and "Afieroma sto Tsitsani", both of which are performances which are worth watching as well as hearing.

I agree with you that it would be a great loss if Dalaras stopped making studio albums. Dalaras thinks so too, he has said so often enough.

On the other hand I think it would be a great loss, too, if he had not released at all the Vamvakaris and Tsitsanis material. And even Dalaras, hyperactive though he is, couldn't re-do all that in the studio. So I am ALL in favour of these live recordings.

Michael, I am sure that the "quick money" is a reason for the release of live recordings by many singers and/or their record companies, but if you try and tell me it applies to Dalaras, don't expect me to take you seriously - I will laugh at you long and loudly.

Finally, yes, there does seem to be a shortage of good composers among the younger generation - there are some, there are some good ones, but their number is not large enough, but that is out of topic in relation to the pro's and con's of live recordings.

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I did not see this another topic or simply once skipped it, because there is too much of the too advanced written Greek for me :confused: .

I understand (even advanced) Greek better, if it is spoken. Years of practiceb with songs :confused:.

But OK, I'll try to follow the discussion. The given link is working OK.

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Michael, I am sure that the "quick money" is a reason for the release of live recordings by many singers and/or their record companies, but if you try and tell me it applies to Dalaras, don't expect me to take you seriously - I will laugh at you long and loudly.

Indeed, Geske, I should not have simply quoted your point 1) but also made clear that in case of Dalaras (or any other of the already "established" singers) of course I do not mean necessarily the money, but more the second aspect you mentioned (that "it looks good in the discography"); or (in my words): the possibility to remain popular in the public, to remain an active singer with lot of reports in the media etc. And for this "it's a quick and easy way to re-use already-known, already-recorded songs".

(Though I am quite sure that Dalaras will not be really angry too about the money he earns with his concerts and his records. :confused: )

And in order to avoid a misunderstanding:

I do not doubt that Dalaras really likes the songs he performs in these live recordings (either the ones performed by himself in the past, either the songs by Vamvakaris, either the ones by Tsitsanis). Not at all. I believe that he really loves this music. And it is very positive that he does not ignore and "forget" it. Only I think that the main reason for the inflationary presentation of all these old songs (not only by Dalaras but also by so many other singers) is another one which I mentioned above ...

PS: Ah, something else: The problem is not only a shortage of good composers "among the younger generation", as you write, but also (and even more) the more or less complete ignorance of the composers of the elder generation. (But that's part of the other topic.)

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:confused:

Hi guys,

You know I was just thinking after reading everyones posts.

It also dawned on me, That one of the most Highlights and Great things about all of the Live Recordings Dalaras gives to us from his Concerts are of the following:

1. We has spectators in the audience and the audience who are NOT present their to witness this event happen take place get to share and for others to re-share that wonderful same experience that occured that night.

2. Sometimes paying Hommage to an Artist get too introduce a new audience from a forgotton artists Works.

So many young generation do not know or understand the Beauty in the Art of the Rembetiko so here Dalaras get to bring and introduce this Genre to us.

3. The concert he did for Vamvakaris is just OUTSTANDING!

Why, simply because of the great modern advance in Recording Technology.

YOu can virtually and audibly hear every instrument sounding the way they should with a Modern Flair and still remain Faithful to its original music without changing its composition.

For example, you hear all the Bouzoukia played and sounding like one Bouzouki;

all the Baglamedes sounding like one Baglama, and their all very Rich in sound and FULL'

and the Reverb in it makes it sound warm as if you are there to partake in the ambience of the room.

And add to the fact,

the Acoustics are so good it really sounds like it was recorded Live in the Studio on one take thats how the Digital Technology Recording has advanced to give us the Audience that Modern Sound we've come to adorn Today. Why even if Vamvakaris were alive today he would be proud & feel honored to hear what achievement and accomplishments is done from his music.

4. And heres the Best reason if not already mentioned as to why Record Live on pre-recorded studio songs.

Sometimes an artist like Dalaras will introduce to us a new "DIASKEVI"

meaning a new arrangement of a pre-recorded song.

Let me give you an example,

Remember the tune

"Taxidi Sthn Kythira" from the motion picture soundtrack in 1984.

The song is composed by Μουσική: Ελένη Καραίνδρου

Στίχοι: Ελένη Καραίνδρου

Anyhow, this tune is rather laid back and a very slow dry Hasapiko

featuring basically just the Bouzouki and the Guitar.

Yet for many years, it was an added Hit during Dalaras Concerts that people have come to expect to hear.

But with that said,

he re-did this song in a totally different way

in the ATIKKON Concert with Pappakonstantino

He gave is a whole New MIX

a different sound of this song

by having it played in a soft Jazz, laid back, and mellow sound in the beginning

then having it sung Acapello with no music or rhythm to this soft Jazz like flow.

That is the Power and Key Concept to re-recording a previous studio song Live. YOu can change the way it will be addressed to the public and give it a new Mix or in this case "Diaskevi" an arrangement.

One has to hear the Original Studio song to partake in the new rendition to enjoy the new concept performed Live with a new mix.

Another good example is,

"ENAS KOMBOS OI HARA MOY"

with the participation of the Rock Group "Pix Lax"

Listen to how the new version and mix Babbis Stokas gives us with Dalaras from that recorded way back in the Original Recording from in the studio around in 1972.

A total new and different blend and new concept idea to playing this song.

And if nothing else, whenever Dalaras sings a Famous Hit in his live recordings concert, you know the audience will at least get the chance to sing along with him on the whole song hence promoting the Audience participation part sing along.

lols

and after all that if you're still with me

in reference to what Sarantiis once said here:

"He has stated that the Microphone has never really captured the voice of Dalaras in the studio throughout all the years he's recorded there".

I somehow have to agree with him there.

Yet, "he feels that the Live recordings has not done so either"

Here I disageree with him as I think he does sound somewhat a little better then he does in the studio work.

But Saranttis further adds," that Dalaras sounds better Live in person then he does on disk.

That is completely TRUE in the last few years

But does that still whole true today?

Hristaki has told me

"he doesn't think Dalaras can sing as good as he used too

by holding back on projecting out the High notes like he used too". Therefore his voice has changed somewhat.

He sings more softly now live then at times hitting the vowels with such force and intensity we all loved to adore from the past.

I got to telly you, I haven't noticed it yet.

If this is true.

tell me your thoughts to where and why????

The Last Zygos recording does at times feature what Hristaki is talking about but that in itself is NOT completely true

WHy because

with the new song Dalaras gave us from the Latin Hit

"AMore"

So here he still bellows those high notes with his Honey Golden VOice and still makes me shiver and give me gooesebumps like before,.

So to conclude here

Giorygo don't ever stop that magic you create on stage with your voice.

Another 20 years of you singing I hope we can get from you.

:confused::confused:

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