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panosb

Ανεμόπτερο

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Celeste, thank you very much. You might consider posting it in the translations section too?

btw.

I think English sailors just shout "Land!"

(The Dutch shout "land in zicht!" though).

I think the song is a metaphor that the listener can apply to anything they like - life is an uncharted sea, so is love, so is death, and so on, take your choice. As for explaining... Nope. Sorry. I don't see a way. I guess this is a song for the intuition, not the explanation.

like the other one:

θάλασσα είναι η αγάπη

κλεισμένη μέσα στην καρδιά

είναι η καρδιά μικρό καράβι

που η αγάπη κυβερνά

and if you don't see how that's possible, ask mrss. Moebius and Escher.

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I listened to the song and woke up....

In my previous message I messed up - a little bit ;)

It starts calmly...Calm Refrain...then a little bit more lively...then exactly as I described it...

Geske, your choice is right to the point :)

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Panosb,I think I never saw described a song better than you did, :) And it suits the words perfectly,doesn't it?

A beautiful song! I'm very much looking forward seeing Dulce Pontes in concert with Dalaras in only a couple of weeks now...

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hemhem...ok, folks. ;) I have to say that, to me, the song is about the Portuguese discoveries. Panos, your interpretation is very poetic, mine is so bread-and-butter :blush:

Geske, thanks for the correction. I may post it later on in the translation section but I have to say that I don't like very much the translation of the title. Does anyone have something better than the word "throughout"?

Why did I say it had to do with the Portuguese discoveries? Simply because - and I take in consideration that the lyrics are from a Greek - it is a very common theme in fados. I presume the song is a fado, I haven't heard it yet. When the theme of the song is related to the sea, it usually has to do either with the fishermen's hard life (we're a country of fishermen and our literature and music is very much related to that) or with Portugal's past glories, the Great Discoveries.

The vessels and caravels in the 1st strophe (in Portuguese naus and caravelas) were the ships used specially during the discoveries.

The song speaks of the a cross and the sails of these ships were white with red crosses on. Obviously it had to do with the will to christianize the newly found lands (and to bring back as many riches as possible). The "I dared to dream" could also be related to the fact that, as you all know, such journeys were considered highly dangerous. Most of the "civilized" world still believed that the planet ended somewhere, that it was flat, so the sailors did what was regarded as impossible and so, they dared to dream that most part of the world was still unknown and yet to be discovered. As our great poet says "we gave more worlds to the world".

Sorry if this seems too prosaic. Anyway, one can see whatever one likes in a song.

:)

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Your analysis makes sence, Celeste...

All the facts you mention are logical...

But why not look at it in a broader way...in a poetical way (which does not exclude your interpretation at all).

So the lyrics contain this kind of "jurney" plus the metaphor described above...

After all, life is nothing but a jurney full of adventures where... nobody comes out satisfied...nor alive...

:)

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Hurray for the notes! Thank you celeste. I knew about the caravels and the crosses on the sails, but I hadn't made the link.

So it's about the great sea explorations - but I don't think it only about them... is it? I mean, it's not a history lesson dressed up as a song... it's much more...

Anyway, one can see whatever one likes in a song

HEAR HEAR!

p.s About the title. How about "All over the seas"?

(Sea is usually put in the plural in English when it means "all the sea-water in the world).

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But of course, Panos! As I said, one makes the interpretation as one pleases. Your view of the song is much more poetical than mine and I like it best. :)

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p.s About the title. How about "All over the seas"?

(Sea is usually put in the plural in English when it means "all the sea-water in the world).

Thanks for the suggestion, Geske. yes, All Over the Seas sounds much better.

As for the History lesson, no, I don't think it is such. You know, we're supposed to be a country of poets, so choose whatever meaning you prefer, or don't.

P.S: about the country of poets, it reminds me, though it has nothing to do with the subject, of an Asterix (maybe Astérix Légionnaire): when the guys are enlisting in the roman army, there's a Lusitanian and the romans ask him if he can do... I don't know what. His answer is "No, but I can quote a poem if you wish". I don't know where this reputation comes from, I just find it funny.

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Με περίπου δύο χρόνια καθυστέρηση απέκτησα κι εγώ το CD "Ανεμόπτερο".

Η γνώμη μου: Φρίκη!!! Τι άσχημα τραγούδια!! B)

Μα είναι δυνατόν ο Νταλάρας να συμμετείχε σε έναν τέτοιο δίσκο;;; :blink:

______________________

With about two years delay I also bought the CD "Anemoptero".

My opinion: It's a horror!!! What terrible songs!! :music:

Unbelievable that Dalaras participated on such a record!!! :blink:

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I had the same question as you, Kapetanios. Maybe, Michael, if you don't mind me asking, you can explain to us what you mean by "horror".

As far as I know, Dalaras has said in the past that sometimes he sings songs that friends submit to him, or participate in collabaration CD's, even though he may not totally like them, just to help his friends out. It is purely out of kindness from his part (he did not say this, but it is understood this way).

I don't have this CD, but I think music is simply a matter of taste, as you have often said yourself in this forum. And even if the songs are truly a horror, I think it is uncharitable to say it without giving an explanation. These may be just some starting singers/composers who need to sell their music and be better known. Many a singer had been told at the beginning that he could not sing and better change job, Elvis included!

Please give them a chance. And if you criticize them, tell them why, so that they can improve.

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First, I agree with the statement that "music is a matter of taste" - meaning, education, experience, and even current mood, etc., etc.

Second, even someone without much experience should be able to understand some basic things about a specific work of art (not only music): one being: is this a purely commercial piece, or did the artist put his sweat and blood in?

As I own this CD, and listened to it few times - so, it's not a fleeting impression - my conclusion is that S. Kourkoulis is a gifted musician, he spent considerable time working on this disk (2 years as is mentioned in the booklet). He carefully chose the lyrics (BTW, very good poetry, in my opinion) and performers.

I think this is an intelligent CD made by an intelligent and dedicated team. Every song is an integral part of the program put on the disk - not just random selection. In my opinion, the music fits the lyrics very well.

This CD does not belong to those "artsy" productions with false pretension at modernity. It has a soul.

And lastly, speaking about Dalaras - "poso krataei ena oneiro" seems to me a real Dalaras, not just a favor to a friend as was suggested above. Anyway, I believe if he is doing such favors those friends and their works are held by him to usual high standards.

Basically, as much as a matter of taste - it would be unfair just to trash this CD in a brief sentence.

P.S. I don't usually like composers singing their songs (even Theodorakis :rolleyes: ) but I liked "Velakia" .

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First of all, those who do not know the CD "Anemoptero", can listen to three samples here (one of them with Dalaras):

http://boutique.info-grece.com/product_inf...roducts_id/5537

I had the same question as you, Kapetanios. Maybe, Michael, if you don't mind me asking, you can explain to us what you mean by "horror".

[...]

And even if the songs are truly a horror, I think it is uncharitable to say it without giving an explanation.

In general that's right, Natalie. I did not give more explanations because I thought that it would not be of much interest in case of a record that is already two years old. But o.k., I will explain more in detail when I will find the time to do so (perhaps this weekend).

For the time being, a suggestion concerning the song "Havana" (from this CD):

There is a purely "commercial" singer in Greece called Elli Kokkinou. In 2000 she published a CD (called "Andriki kolonia") on which she performs (with greek lyrics) an original latinamerican song, written by a certain Ramon Monchito. (Unfortunately I could not find out, where exactly he comes from.) It's title is "Pao pao".

Here is a link, where you can listen to a sample of this song (about 50 seconds). (It's from a different CD, but the song is the same). It is the second song in the list with the song titles:

http://boutique.info-grece.com/product_inf...roducts_id/5108

If you like, listen to it and perhaps you can tell your opinion about two points:

1. Which of the two songs ("Pao pao" or "Havana") do you regard the better one?

2. Is there a strong similarity between the refrains of the two songs, or not?

_____________________

The same in Greek:

Πρώτα απ όλα, όσοι δεν γνωρίζουν το CD "Ανεμόπτερο" μπορούν να ακούσουν τρία σύντομα αποσπάσματα εδώ (ένα από αυτά με τον Νταλάρα):

http://boutique.info-grece.com/product_inf...roducts_id/5537

Μέχρι να βρω το χρόνο να επανέλθω, μια πρόταση αναφορικά με το τραγούδι "Havana" (από το εν λόγω CD):

Υπάρχει μια καθαρά "εμπορική" τραγουδίστρια, η Έλλη Κοκκίνου (αρκετά γνωστή είναι, νομίζω). Το 2000 κυκλοφόρησε ένα CD ("Ανδρική κολώνια") στο οποίο ερμηνεύει (με ελληνικούς στίχους της Εύης Δρούτσα) ένα αυθεντικό λατινοαμερικάνικο τραγούδι, γραμμένο από κάποιον Ramon Monchito. (Δυστυχώς μέχρι στιγμής δεν κατάφερα να μάθω από πού ακριβώς είναι.) Λέγεται "Pao pao (Πάω πάω)".

Να ένας σύνδεσμος, όπου μπορείτε να ακούσετε ένα απόσπασμα από αυτό το τραγούδι (50 δευτερόλεπτα περίπου). (Είναι από διαφορετικό CD, αλλά το τραγούδι είναι το ίδιο.) Είναι το δεύτερο κομμάτι στη λίστα με τους τίτλους:

http://boutique.info-grece.com/product_inf...roducts_id/5108

Αν σας ενδιαφέρει, ακούστε το απόσπασμα και ίσως μπορείτε να πείτε τη γνώμη σας για δύο ζητήματα:

- Ποιο από τα δύο τραγούδια ("Pao pao" ή "Havana") θεωρείτε καλύτερο;

- Υπάρχει μια έντονη ομοιότητα ανάμεσα στα ρεφρέν των δύο τραγουδιών ή όχι;

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- Ποιο από τα δύο τραγούδια ("Pao pao" ή "Havana") θεωρείτε καλύτερο;

- Υπάρχει μια έντονη ομοιότητα ανάμεσα στα ρεφρέν των δύο τραγουδιών ή όχι;

Δαγκωτό στην Κοκκίνου!!!

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It is difficult to express in words why you find a certain music very good or very bad. But as I promised to explain my (negative) opinion about this CD, I will try do so.

The most positive I can say is that the two songs with Dalaras ("Poso krataei ena oneiro" and "Havana") are the relatively best of the CD.

To my mind the other songs have not the lightest inspiration concerning their bemelodies (if we can call these sounds "melodies") and the instrumentation is very ugly (with all the annoying use of synthesizer etc.). Listen for example to the first song ("Anemoptero") whose singer (Adriana Bambabli) moreover sings out of tune. Extremely bad is also one of the songs with Galani: "I mera skotini". Simply terrible.

vitaly2 writes:

As I own this CD, and listened to it few times - so, it's not a fleeting impression - my conclusion is that S. Kourkoulis is a gifted musician, he spent considerable time working on this disk (2 years as is mentioned in the booklet). He carefully chose the lyrics (BTW, very good poetry, in my opinion) and performers.

I think this is an intelligent CD made by an intelligent and dedicated team. Every song is an integral part of the  program put on the disk - not just random selection. In my opinion, the music fits the lyrics very well.

This CD does not belong to those "artsy" productions with false pretension at modernity. It has a soul.

Sorry, but in general my own opinion is completely the reverse (concerning the music; I did not deal with the lyrics): No, to me there is nothing "intelligent" in the music: It is completely shallow, uninspired and boring. And I cannot find any soul in it.

This applies also to the two songs with Dalaras, although his voice (as usual) can give even such songs a certain charm:

"Poso krataei ena oneiro":

The first notes at the beginning (played by a guitar I think) indeed promise a beautiful song but unfortunately this melody is not continued. Dalaras starts to sing nice but at the latest where he starts with the "eida ston ipno mou exthes" the song becomes shallow and uninteresting. And the refrain is the usual pop style in melody and instrumentation we know from so many other "Greek" (?) songs.

"Havana":

Can anyone explain me what the nonsense at the beginning of the song is good for? I mean this sound of the telephone, the voices from far away and Dalaras' voice sounding like through a telephone? And why is Dalaras willing to try out this nonsense?? Afterwards the "real" songs starts. All sounds tired: the melody and Dalaras' voice too.

And then comes the refrain ("Ki esi na meneis ekei") which I regard the (relatively) best part of the song and of all the CD. But exactly this part I can hear in a better and more authentic ... "variation" in the song "Pao pao" with Elli Kokkinou. (If I believe at all that it is necessary that Greek singers perform latin-american music.)

No, no. I do not say that Korkolis has stolen the refrain from Ramon Monchito's song. :) I do not want to be sued by Korkolis because of false accusations. :) But I think that one can say that in the refrain of the song "Havana" Korkolis simply imitated (original) latin-american music. And I wonder why we need a Greek composer in case that we want to listen to this type of music. Yes, latin sound is "modern", it is "in" (as all the "world music" / "ethnic") - and this is obviously the only reason why Korkolis composed this song and why Dalaras performed it (together with Dulce Pontes).

Summary: One good melody on the whole CD - and not even this is something authentic. :blink:

PS: In case that I am in mood, I will write the above comment in Greek too a little bit later.

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[Το παραπάνω σχόλιό μου και στα ελληνικά:]

Είναι δύσκολο να εκφράσεις με λόγια για ποιο λόγο θεωρείς κάποια μουσική πολύ καλή ή πολύ κακή. Αλλά αφού υποσχέθηκα να εξηγήσω την (αρνητική) γνώμη μου για το εν λόγω CD, θα προσπαθήσω να το κάνω.

Το πιο θετικό που μπορώ να πω είναι ότι τα δύο τραγούδια με τον Νταλάρα ("Πόσο κρατάει ένα όνειρο" και "Havana") είναι τα σχετικώς καλύτερα του CD.

Κατά τη γνώμη μου, όλα τα άλλα κομμάτια δεν έχουν ούτε την παραμικρή έμπνευση όσον αφορά τις μελωδίες τους (αν μπορούμε να ονομάσουμε μελωδίες αυτούς τους ήχους), και η ενορχήστρωση είναι πολύ άσχημη (με όλη αυτή την ενοχλητική χρήση του συνθεσάιζερ κ.λπ.). Ακούστε για παράδειγμα το πρώτο τραγούδι ("Ανεμόπτερο") του οποίου η ερμηνεύτρια (Ανδριάνα Μπάμπαλη) φαλτσάρει κι από πάνω. Εξαιρετικά άσχημο είναι επίσης ένα από τα τραγούδια με τη Γαλάνη: "Η μέρα σκοτεινή". Απλώς φρικτό.

Η vitaly2 γράφει:

As I own this CD, and listened to it few times - so, it's not a fleeting impression - my conclusion is that S. Kourkoulis is a gifted musician, he spent considerable time working on this disk (2 years as is mentioned in the booklet). He carefully chose the lyrics (BTW, very good poetry, in my opinion) and performers.

I think this is an intelligent CD made by an intelligent and dedicated team. Every song is an integral part of the  program put on the disk - not just random selection. In my opinion, the music fits the lyrics very well.

This CD does not belong to those "artsy" productions with false pretension at modernity. It has a soul.

Λυπάμαι, αλλά σε γενικές γραμμές η δική μου άποψη είναι η εντελώς αντίθετη (όσο για τη μουσική· δεν ασχολήθηκα με τους στίχους): Όχι, για μένα δεν υπάρχει κάτι το "ευφυές" σε αυτή τη μουσική: Είναι εντελώς ρηχή, χωρίς έμπνευση και πληκτική. Και δεν μπορώ να βρω ψυχή μέσα της.

Αυτό ισχύει επίσης για τα δύο τραγούδια με τον Νταλάρα, παρ όλο που η φωνή του (όπως συνήθως) προσδίδει ακόμα και σε τέτοια κομμάτια μια κάποια χάρη:

"Πόσο κρατάει ένα όνειρο":

Τα πρώτα μέτρα στην αρχή (παιγμένα από κιθάρα αν δεν απατώμαι) όντως υπόσχονται ένα ωραίο τραγούδι, αλλά δυστυχώς συτή η μελωδία δεν συνεχίζεται. Ο Νταλάρας αρχίζει να τραγουδά χαριτώμενα, όμως το αργότερο εκεί που ξεκινά το "είδα στον ύπνο μου εχθές" το τραγούδι γίνεται ρηχό και αδιάφορο. Και το ρεφρέν χαρακτηρίζεται σε μουσική και ενορχήστρωση από το συνηθισμένο ποπ ύφος που το γνωρίζουμε από τόσα άλλα "ελληνικά" (?) τραγούδια.

"Havana":

Μήπως κάποιος μπορεί να μου εξηγήσει σε τι χρησιμεύει αυτή η ανοησία στην αρχή του τραγουδιού; Εννοώ το σήμα του τηλεφώνου, τις φωνές από μακριά και τη φωνή του Νταλάρα σαν μέσα από ένα τηλέφωνο. Και γιατί ο Νταλάρας είναι διατεθειμένος να δοκιμάσει τέτοια σαχλαμάρα;; Ύστερα το "πραγματικό" τραγούδι ξεκινά. Όλα ακούγονται κουρασμένα: η μελωδία και η φωνή του Νταλάρα επίσης.

Και τότε αρχίζει το ρεφρέν ("Κι εσύ να μένεις εκεί") που το θεωρώ το (σχετικά) καλύτερο μέρος του τραγουδιού και ολόκληρου του CD. Αλλά ακριβώς αυτό το μέρος μπορώ να το ακούσω σε μια καλύτερη και πιο αυθεντική ... "παραλλαγή" στο τραγούδι "Πάω πάω" με την Έλλη Κοκκίνου. (Αν το θεωρώ καθόλου αναγκαίο να ερμηνεύουν έλληνες τραγουδιστές λατινοαμερικανική μουσική.)

Όχι, όχι. Δεν υποστηρίζω ότι ο Κορκολής έχει κλέψει το ρεφρέν του "Havana" από το τραγούδι του Ramon Monchito. :) Δεν θέλω να μου κάνει μήνυση ο Κορκολής λόγω δυσφήμησης. :) Αλλά νομίζω πως μπορεί να πει κανείς ότι στο ρεφρέν του τραγουδιού "Havana" απλώς μιμήθηκε (αυθεντική) λατινοαμερικανική μουσική. Και αναρωτιέμαι γιατί χρειαζόμαστε έναν έλληνα συνθέτη σε περίπτωση που θέλουμε να ακούσουμε αυτό το είδος μουσικής. Ναι, ο latin ήχος είναι "της μόδας" (όπως ολόλκληρη η "world music" / "ethnic") και αυτός είναι προφανώς ο μοναδικός λόγος γιατί ο Κορκολής έγραψε αυτό το τραγούδι και γιατί το ερμήνευσε ο Νταλάρας (μαζί με την Dulce Pontes).

Αποτέλεσμα: Μία καλή μελωδία σε ολόκληρο το CD και ούτε αυτή δεν είναι κάτι το αυθεντικό. :blink:

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Aφού έγινε συζήτηση θα ήθελα να γράψω τη γνώμη μου γι'αυτόν το δίσκο , τον οποίο κι εγώ θεωρώ τελείως αδιάφορο.

Την κατάσταση σώζουν κάπως τα δυο κομμάτια με τον Νταλάρα ,όλα τα υπόλοιπα μου φάνηκαν τελείως άχρωμα και ανούσια.Συμφωνώ επίσης με τον Michael για την εισαγωγή του τραγουδιού Havana.Ακόμη προσπαθώ να καταλάβω τι ρόλο παίζει το τηλέφωνο στην αρχή και ο Νταλάρας να ακούγεται μέσα από φίλτρα.

Εν πάσει περιπτώσει το υπόλοιπο τραγούδι είναι πολύ όμορφο,ειδικότερα από το refrain και μετά, όπως και το "Πόσο κρατάει ένα όνειρο" επίσης...

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Still very subjective accessment of the disk and songs (as it should be - even in those other arts like architecture or paintings, we have only vague criteria of "proportions", "freshness of colors", etc. - it's really not much, and with music it's even worth ). It's still "terrible", "horrible", "boring", "dull". - or "beautiful", "exciting". I would say that a two-bit assessment by teenagers "cool" - "not cool" is easier to understand... :wow:

How can you assess a music piece if there is no definition of music? Look at those bookstore shelves - full of books on music: 99% not worth reading, and each of us can better create our own theory. Just for example: one renown author proclaimed that music is a byproduct of the language development. Ridiculous. A colleague of mine (Ph.D) when asked what's in the music, said that it can make her work more productive :rolleyes:

Confucius said that music should be banned because it's disturbing (counter-productive?)

:lol:

So, all statements must be really accompanied by words "in my humble opinion", IMHO; please, don't take it seriously, PDTIS. That holds for the following, too.

I would define music as a form of meditation. It can be categorized into two major groups:

that opens your mind, and that shuts it close, makes it dumb (most of the so-called "commercial" music which is made for sale with the possibly biggest profits aiming at the largest possible audience).

The first group can include works of bigger or lesser talent - so it can reach bigger or smaller audience, but the common feature is that is is trying to reach, it has something to say.

This disk has something to say - although it is not one of those I would like to listen often. The songs are disturbing - a little schizophrenic, actually (split, confused). BTW, D. Galani's performance is superb. I have impression that S.Kourkoulis wrote those songs especialy for her. He might have composed the other songs, also having in mind who will sing.

I have this impression: the song performed by Dalaras (Oneiro) was written especially for him, and it does stand out (actually, it does not fit into the disk general mood): meaning that it is not schizophrenic. If S.K. was writing specially for Dalaras - this makes sense: Dalaras is the most balanced and sane personality: a center, an axis to which we all, being so different, gravitate. All said, and even with Dlaras' great performance: no, this song does not fit - it's not his (Korkoulis) style, so it is nice, but rather plain, piece.

Please, vote, those who can be bothered - that's the only way to judge a music work.

:D

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Thank you, Natalie :D

I also think that we can better understand our own music tastes by listening to others.

By the way, when I became a forum member, I only knew couple Greek words. I feel that music is more important than lyrics, too. At least it is always a beginning in the Ariadne's thread. But a song is a fusion of both. Sometimes, the poetry is so demanding that it requires music which is not so pleasing to hear by itself.

(Why should you listen? You don't. Only if you feel like it - not because someone else said you should. Otherwise, you will be only irritated. And sharing tastes in mind-dumbing music is much easier.)

One thing calls another - music - lyrics - another type of music - more poetry - more people - ... looking into yourself...

That's what I call "music opening the mind"

P.S. Confucius had too many rules and regulations. Imposing his "good" and "bad" on you. But I miss the old man when tortured by "musical" noise pollution. He would have made the headphones obligatory.

:wow:

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Hey there Natalie,

just thought Id drop in a line too on this subject

For the most part, I tend to agree with everyone here

especially with that of Michael's comments.

I have the CD and I too didn't really like any of the songs Korkoulis wrote and recorded on it. Not too say he is not a good composer

its just that on the 1st and 2nd attempt to listen to it, well it didnt' strke me an imprint or Awe me too really like all the compositinos on there.

In fact it did just the oppossite defer me from hearing them again.

Lols

On the other hand, I didnt know Dulce sang "Mare Ttu" with Boccelli, now that sounds Interesting. I did like the 2 songs Dalaras sang on there even though it is with now his new tone in voice he sings in.

I'm surprised you didn't really like Dulce voice that much.

Certainly I think Marinella emphasizes more technique in her style of singing from her voice. But Dulce voice is also strong and if maybe too colorful or bright and monotonoues at times overbearing with her emphasises on her vibrato or tremole coming from her siinging voice. Maybe thats what you didnt like as much as Marinella does not dwell every vowel or consonant with Viibrato and spinning of the voice. But both Artists have well control and technique in their singing and know how to make it sound coloful..

Lastly, I would have loved to have heard Dalaras sing these 2 songs from Korkoulis 10 years or more ago.

If you like how he sings them now, trust me they would have sounded even better then when his voice was Pefect Perfection.

As far Bocelli, he is a good singer too, and some of his songs I like how he sings them - with Italian accent and all from the English ones he sings in, but I'll still take Dalaras singing over him any day

;)

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