Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Tripolitis is a great poet. He is also impossible for sub-titles. If you translate the words he writes, you end up with gibberish. So you have to guess at what he means and then try and find words that mean the same in English - and sometimes you end up with words that (seem to) have no relation to the original. And you don't know if they are right. And you feel like a goddam traitor - but, as Peter Wimsey once remarked with his usual acuity: "feeling like Judas is part of the job". Anyway. I am paying this song the attention it deserves though unable to do it justice in translation. ΔΕ ΘΕΛΩ ΠΙΑ | | | I don't want to, anymore p.s. There is a newer translation at the end of the topic Μουσική: Μίκης Θεοδωράκης | | | Music: Mikis Theodorakis Στίχοι: Κώστας Τριπολίτης | | | Lyrics: Kostas Tripolitis Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω δε θέλω πια | | | I don't want to be the colour anymore, I don't want να χρωματίζω τους ουρανούς σου δε θέλω πια | | | to be the colour of your skies, I don't want to αυτό το αστείο τερματίζω | | | I'm ending that joke και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου και σβήνω | | | and deleting myself from your equations or και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου και σβήνω | | | and vanishing from your thinking Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω στον καιρό μου | | | I don't want to be the colour anymore, in my own time, αυτό που δεν αναγνωρίζω για δικό μου | | | of something I do not recognize as my own δε θέλω πια δε θέλω πια δε θέλω πια | | | I don't want to anymore, I don't want to anymore Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω δε θέλω πια | | | I don't want to be the colour anymore, I don't want να χρωματίζω τα σύνορά σου δε θέλω πια | | | to colour your outlines, κι από τον κόσμο που γνωρίζω | | | and from the people that I know να ψάχνω για τη διαφορά σου να ψάχνω | | | to be always searching how you are different, always searching Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω στον καιρό μου | | | I don't want to be the colour anymore, in my own time, αυτό που δεν αναγνωρίζω για δικό μου | | | of something I do not recognize as my own δε θέλω πια δε θέλω πια | | | I don't want to anymore, I don't want to anymore Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Well, there are many mistakes, but after all you tried to translate Tripolitis! Ok let's start. Χρωματίζω= to colour. (not to be coloured) (Είναι ενεργητική φωνή. Η παθητική είναι "χρωματίζομαι") Then it should be: I don't want to colour anymore, I don't want to colour your skies, I don't want (anymore) then you should correct the rest of the song accordingly (for example: To colour your borders), the same goes for the refrain. Now the second mistake is not actually yours, it's actually Nikolas' because the lyrics are not "AYTON που δεν αναγνωρίζω για δικό μου" but "ΑΥΤΟ που δεν αναγνωρίζω για δικό μου". (it's pretty clear when he sings it, and you can also check it in the booklet) So, the refrain should be I don't want to colour in my time That which I don't recognize as my own (or: what I don't recognize as my own) (whichever is more correct in English) That's all folks!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Oh I just found another one: Συλλογισμός=Thought and not Equation So: Ι am (deleting myself) from your thoughts. Actually it's not deleting myself. It's like fading away from your thoughts (or whatever the English expression is) It's like "Η φωτιά σβήνει" if you get my meaning. (it doesn't get deleted) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου και σβήνω | | | and deleting myself from your equations And here is a "συλλογισός μου" ( ) concerning a possible different interpretation. I do not say that it is correct as I do not understand Tripolitis nor do I appreciate his way of writing lyrics. I only would like to mention it: There is two times the word "σβήνω". In the translation the second "σβήνω" is regarded as a mere repetition. But it could also have an additional, second meaning. Something like: "I'm fading away [= σβήνω 1] from your thoughts/resaonings and I am dying (or: I am finished or: I am disappearing )" [or something similar] (as these can also be the meanings of "σβήνω"). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Tripolitis is difficult but at least he's never boring I'm SO glad I'm not the only one who's paying attention to him! Here goes for the translation. About χρωματίζω Pavlo you are right but I did it on purpose. First because "I don't want to colour" is very clumsy in English - it's not a verb that is used much, and never in this manner, it sounds like someone who doesn't know how to talk (like me when I'm trying to say things that are still beyond my Greek ). Second because (if I understood correctly) if I'm eating cherries and the juice turns my mouth purple, I can say that it χρωματίζει - so, I put the poet in the role of the paint, or rather of Colour itself. About συλλογισμούς - το ίδιο. It means 'thought' but also 'reasonning' - compare the internatial technical term 'syllogism'. I admit that equations is definitely non-litteral, but I like it... The reason I put 'deleting myself' is that 'σβήνω' is also used for what you do with a rubber to erase writing in pencil, and to an unwanted computer file sent to the Recycle bin. So, not the usage of "σβήνει η φωτιά" but of " σβήνω την φωτιά". A matter of choice, purely! "Vanish" seems wrong to me because it's something that happens to one, not something one does. You can't remove yourself from another person's thoughts, can you? But you can put yourself out of reach of their reasonning, calculations, planning, from their life generally... but NOT from their thoughts (I'm speaking from experience here). So, I'll leave it to each reader's choice: και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου και σβήνω | | | and deleting myself from your equations or και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου και σβήνω | | | and vanishing from your thinking As for the repeat of σβήνω, Michael, there is something to what you say, and I'd incline to accept it, except that the whole poem is full of repetitions that are just that, repetitions - so I'll leave it as is. But uncertainly. Finally, as for αυτόν - αυτό the reason I came in just now is that I was listening to it again and this very word caught my ear and I went and checked it - and found I had to correct it. Αυτά. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Geeske I must insist on the meaning of χρωματίζω Δε θελω να χρωματίζω τους ουρανούς σου : it's the skies that get coloured not I. The paintbrush and the paper are not the same thing. Tripolitis is not the colour of the sky, he is the poet who holds the paintbrush and paints the sky. Those are 2 different things, and perhaps they could be 2 different poems. (For example He could be blue, and still paint the sky red.) If to colour doesnt sound good (since it's the exact translation) why don't you try "to paint"? Even if it doesn't sound good, that's the real meaning. Basically maybe it's one of those often cases where poetry gets lost in translation. That happens because in order to trasnlate the poem you actually have to change the meaning, and that's very bad especially for a political song. So I think that it's better to have even a clumsy translation but accurate than a trasnlation with a different meaning. As for σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου, your second translation is much more correct (and vanishing from your thinking) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Sorry but I have to intervene. Astron's comment is right.about xrwmatizw... You say: "I don't want to colour" is very clumsy in English Remember: You make the verse in English...you create it...you must make it sound good, natural and genuine English. και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου και σβήνω Follow Michael's advice: Disappear. "and I disappear from your thoughts and I fade (out)" sbhnw is mentioned twice... once from the thoughts and once from his own exiistance. I'm advising you to be careful when you choose words: Sometimes you may find the right word...but the verse sounds Chineese! It must have the same effect on the foregner... linguistically and emotionally. "and I disappear from your thoughts and I fade (out)"..I like it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Something that came up to my mind: Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω δε θέλω πια | | | don't want to paint anymore, I don't want να χρωματίζω τους ουρανούς σου δε θέλω πια | | I don't want to paint your skies, I don't want to. Sounds good? It's just a suggestion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Well, NO, I want to paint your skies does NOT sound right to me. I'm sorry to contradict you guys but I really think he does not mean "I don't want to stand on a ladder with a brush in my hand painting the sky" - and that's the image you get from the English sentence. What I think he means is something like "if you want blue skies, from now on, you will have to make them blue yourself, because I won't do it for you anymore". Pavlos, I didn't mean the poet is the paper, and still less that he is the paintbrush! I meant he is Colour (είναι Χρώμα). Αυτός, η παρούσια του αν θέλεις, είναι το γαλανο του ουρανού της, ή, στη επόμενη στοφή, είναι τα χρώματα που χρώματίζουν τα σύνορα της (σαν χαρτι, με καφέ για τα βουνά και πράσινο για τους δάσους κλπ). "To be the colour of your borders" is not right - I'm changing it to "to colour your outlines" - the image being of a child's colouring book, with line drawings that the child fills in with colour. As for the delete vs. vanish if you translate σβήνω to english you get "vanish" but if you translate "delete" into greek you get σβήνω (I just looked it up) I'm putting the two "solutions" in the post because really it means both of them at the same time - and then some. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Concerning the "χρωματίζω" Ι think that now I understand what Geske wants to express: Imagine the man (the singer) as the "colour" ("χρώμα"), that means something positive, beautiful (in his personality) for the other person (for her life = "her skies"). And with this meaning Geske's (free) translation makes sense and would fit grammatically with the Greek version: "Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω δε θέλω πια | | | I don't want to be the colour [= to give you "my colour" / the colour of my personality] anymore, I don't want να χρωματίζω τους ουρανούς σου δε θέλω πια | | | to be the colour of your skies [with the positive effects of my personality], I don't want to" I do not know if it would be the correct interpretation of Tripolitis' lyrics. But I think from the grammatical point of view it would be o.k. Astron + Panos, what do you think about it? 2. Concerning the "και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου και σβήνω" I agree with Astron and Panos: The translation should be "and vanishing from your thinking" (or something similar). PS: Geske, I still did not read your recent posting. So maybe something I write above is no longer actual. PPS: Geske, now I read your posting. I think I understood correctly what you meant with your translation of "χρωματίζω": The man himself is the "colour". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post The fact is that with this way of translating it you are not allowing the reader to interpretate the poem the way he feels, but the way the translator feel. It's an interpretation and a translation together. For example one of the interpretations I had thought about this poem is: "Ι don't want to colour your skies" means that he doesn't want to give a political direction (to someone) anymore. Don't forget that Greeks (and not only the Greeks) had been divided to colours according to what they voted. For example the red ones are the communists. Considering that 90% of Tripolitis songs are political songs it's logical to conclude that it has something to do with that. Geske, you say that "paint your skies" is funny and sounds strange and weird. The thing is that even in Greek "χρωματίζω τους ουρανούς" sounds strange and weird! That's Tripolitis. And yes, that verse is a metaphor which means something. Translating it that freely changes the meaning of the metaphor. So you took the weird verse of Tripolitis and you translated it into a "poetically correct" verse which sounds like normal poetry. But that's not Tripolitis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 20, 2004 · Report post Pavlo mou, now you've understood exactly why I said (about translating Tripolitis, but it goes for all poetry and indeed for most translations) "feeling like Judas is part of the job". Yes, it is often impossible to translate without interpreting. But it's funny that you should say it about this particular case, because actually, the way i translated it allows the reader to understand the 'colouring' in any way - emotional, political, philosophical, anything. I mean, if _you_ were reading it the english version, not knowing the greek, you could still interpret it the way you did. I think the problem here is that you misunderstood the english, not that i misunderstood the greek - for once!! after all, it happens vice-versa all the time . p.s. communists are red everywhere :razz: p.p.s. and I agree that Tripolitis is NOT normal poetry!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 21, 2004 · Report post The discussion shows two things which are connected strongly with each other: - There are certain poems, lyrics etc. for which obviously cannot be found an absolutely convincing interpretation in the language it is written. - Consequently it is the less impossible to realize an absolutely convincing translation. Whatever you say as interpretation or whatever you choose as translation, you risk that you misunderstood something. And I mean "misunderstanding" in relation to what the author wanted to tell us with his text (with a certain metaphor etc.). And to my mind it is too easy to say whenever I do not understand the meaning of a text: "Let the reader interpret the poem the way he feels." No. I think that (at least in the field of Greek song lyrics) the authors want to give a certain meaning/message with what they are writing (instead of offering a dozen of possibilities of interpretations to the reader/listener). And as Tripolitis in many cases is a "political" writer, I think that this applies to him too. (At least sometimes - and I have the impression that the metaphor with "χρωματζίω" / "to colour" is such a case). Whatever may be the reasons when in such cases an absolutely convincing interpretation / translation does not succeed (either our own lack of abilities or the author's disability [or unwillingness] to present his "message" in a clear way) - there would only be one way to clarify the situation: To ask the author himself what he meant. Otherwise we behave like being lost in the darkness trying to find out the way to the light: Everyone suggests a different direction where to go, based on his own vague assumptions where the light could be. (And by the way: I wonder why there are always people who say that they like or even admire certain poems [or writers] although they do not even understand the meaning of what they read. :blink: :blink:.) With all the above restrictions I tend to believe that Geske is right when she says: the way i translated it allows the reader to understand the 'colouring' in any way - emotional, political, philosophical, anything. That's not at all a satisfactory result (at least for my "philosophy" of what is "good" lyrics or poetry). But it is not the translator who is to blame for this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 21, 2004 · Report post Well, it depends wether you are translating a message or a metaphor. They are two different things. (No I won't give definitions). In translation, a message should be clear and a metaphor should be (widely) applicable. If (like you, Michael) one likes a strong, clear, message, it can be very irritating to read a text built on a metaphor (the other way around it is true too). Now, I think we can agree that it is not appropriate to translate a metaphor as if it were a message (or vice-versa). On the other hand, endless discussion is possible as to what is (and isn't) a metaphor (or a message) and what it does (and does not) cover. It's possible but I'm not taking part. BTW I personally think that this discussion (however interesting) is out of place in here. Because NOBODY here - me least of all! - is making REAL translations - these are CRIBS, or SUBTITLES, or reading aids... they can at best "give you a partial idea of what it's about" but they are NOT real translations. It takes a poet to translate a poem. I am not a poet. Are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 21, 2004 · Report post Paint the skies... It IS the meanng and it DOES sound English. There was even an album by Enya called: Paint the sky with blue... Whether the skies are painted through a brush or by the performer's existance, it makes no difference. Of course "to colour" is not wrong but it sounds strange... It's like my comment (a mistake I was about to make) in a PM yesterday: Heart Attack vs Myocardial Infarction.... The latter is more precise but the former is more used and more understood... Give me some time to read the rest of the messages.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 21, 2004 · Report post Well, it depends wether you are translating a message or a metaphor. They are two different things. I disagree. Message and metaphor are different things, but in a completely other way than you say: - "Metaphor" refers to the form (μορφή) in which you present something. - And this "something" (the contents) is (or: should be) a "message" (μήνυμα). A metaphor can (and to my mind: should) have a (clear) message (with the words of Λευτέρης Παπαδόπουλος: κάτι το "χειροπιαστό, ουσιαστικό"). For example (Μάνος Ελευθερίου, extract from his song "Θέλω να φύγω σ επαρχία"): " Θέλω να φύγω σ επαρχία να ξεχαστώ μες στη σιωπή. [....] Τις γέφυρες θ ανατινάξω σε μέλλον και σε παρελθόν και κάτι νέο θα ταιριάξω στην επαρχία που θα φτάσω δίχως τον άρρωστο τον ουρανό." Here you have at least 3 or 4 metaphors, and you would say that they contain / transmit (μεταφέρουν / μεταβιβάζουν) no message???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 21, 2004 · Report post I am too tired today to follow all this discussion in detaails, as it deserves. But 1. This is an absolutely right place for it, Geske. Why should we multiply artificial topics, what get wide etsi kai allios in the time? 2. It is the higher phenomenon of connection between arts - more widely discussed in the Romantic era - but reading the quoted text of Manos Eleftheriou I can not read it - I hear the music, even against my will. Not, because I know this text by heart or understand every word of it, or have heard the song in the last days. This is not the case. Just understanding well one or two verses of this quoted fragment I associate it already with this music. For some writers of the Romantic era this was one of signs confirming real quality of art. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 21, 2004 · Report post [...] but reading the quoted text of Manos Eleftheriou I can not read it - I hear the music, even against my will. [...] Just understanding well one or two verses of this quoted fragment I associate it already with this music. The same happens to me, Olga. I cannot imagine these lyrics (as many other lyrics too) without "their" music. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2005 · Report post I've checked the lyrics against the cd booklet and revised the translation - here it is in a separate post, to avoid messing up the logic (if any) of the topic. Δε θέλω πια _____||_____ I don't want to, anymore Μουσική: Μίκης Θεοδωράκης_____||_____ Music: Mikis Theodorakis Στίχοι: Κώστας Τριπολίτης_____||_____ Lyrics: Kostas Tripolitis Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω - δε θέλω πια_____||_____ I don't want to be the colour anymore, I don't want να χρωματίζω τους ουρανούς σου - δε θέλω πια_____||_____ to be the colour of your skies, I don't want to αυτό το αστείο τερματίζω _____||_____ I'm ending that joke και σβήνω απ' τους συλλογισμούς σου - και σβήνω._____||_____ and deleting myself from your equations - deleting. Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω _____||_____ I don't want to be the colour anymore στον καιρό μου_____||_____ in my own time αυτό που δεν αναγνωρίζω_____||_____ of something I do not recognize για δικό μου_____||_____ as my own δε θέλω πια_____||_____ I don't want to anymore Δε θέλω πια να χρωματίζω - δε θέλω πια_____||_____ I don't want to be the colour anymore, I don't want να χρωματίζω τα σύνορά σου δε - θέλω πια_____||_____ to be the colour of your borders, nor do I want kι από τον κόσμο που γνωρίζω_____||_____ from the people that I know να ψάχνω για τη διαφορά σου - να ψάχνω._____||_____ to be always searching how you are different - always searching Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites