Andonis

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The problem is that you generalize the song motivation!

Antometrios says that Matia Kastana isn't "as loud as" Paraponemena Logia etc...

Of course it isn't!!! It shouldn't be.

Paraponemena Logia...Hlie mou se parakalw etc are songs which represent a political status...

Matia Kastana is o romantic song...

Natalie : The song IS meaningful and deep. Its is a deep SONG... Not poetry...nor philosophy...nor religious text (errr...did you mean the Song of Songs :huh: ).

And, again, I can assure you that this song is "touching"...it does its work perfectly (in sensual matters) as Sthn Alana does (in political matters).

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and the translationsI've seen (or made) are definitely NOT poems.

And who says they must be? They are good translations. Do not underestimate your own work, Geeske, OK? :pity:

The meaning of songs. The lst posts reminds me of eternal discussionns of musicians and musicologists to the "programme" and "absolute" music.

1. From the first kind was it always expected to support big ideas of any kind (the first notes of the 5th Symphony of Beethoven, eg, interpreted as "the Fate" or even "Fatum" knocking on the door). On the another side it could be a music of romantic tendencies and emotions, always good recognizable and mostly with additional titles.

"The four seasons" of Vivaldi as the most glorious example, both of "popular" and "classical" music.

2. While the "Absolute" music was told to be the only one to reach Absolut, God, Heaven and so on in this direction.

This happens to the listeners, who have their own preferences and do not need the texts to enjoy music, even if they listen to some kind of operas.

Some listeners are so moved by beauty of music, that they want to know the meaning of texts - and this is, nothing false, either (well, I learned German with Bach's cantatas and Greek with songs......).

These songs I know since ever and ever, turned to be simply texts, after I began to understand them. Sometimes are the texts even very simply,and everyday ones, saying about not romantic, but rather modern life ("ach, Maria, monos mou stin biraria", .like Manolis Mitsias was singing.... ). But they are still my beloved songs I grew up with :huh:

On the other hand, no bits of conscience needed, if somebody is disappointed with a song or does not like it or whatever.

The "Asphaltos" is surely not among these tunes and sounds we are used to hear by Giorgos Dalaras, that might be one of the causes it is not such a beloved album like many others.. But this is obvious....

Natalie, what about "John Barleycorn" with Jethro Tull? Do you like this face of Giorgos Dalaras? Should it always be something very deep and very touching in the way we are used to it?

Cold you imagine, Giorgos Dalaras begins to be more known in my land not thanks to his greatest and known and. most meaningful songs, but because of "Louloudi" he was singing with our Cracow artist Grzegorz Turnau (see: Dalaras together with...", Nov. 2002)? They surely enjoyed it as if it were, let's say, Axion Esti!

And finally, must we like the same? Fortunately not B) . If we do not want to have a boring life.

Panos, special thanks to you. You made me rediscover the "Asphaltos".

But I dod not understand so well, why you call it "skiladiko" and why is it then not so interesting for you. can I ask for explanation of the two terms you used before, please?

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There seems to be a lot of controversy about Matia Kastana. For me, it is a great song, because Dalaras does not sing at such a loud voice in recent songs any more, from my knowledge. Only in Paraponemena Logia can I find such volume.

:huh:

Hey Natalie, I see your point of view on the volume for the song you like 'Matia Kastana' and though I respect your opinion I'm afraid to say I disagree with it entirely for several reasons.

Mainly 1) It is the Great Powerful Voice of Dalaras that Immensely distinguishes himself from other Pop artists singers.

2) How many Commercial Laika Singers do we have today that have come and gone within the last 5-7years?

I've lost tracked

and none of them "Axizoune Aspoume"

Kourkoulis, Alkeos, Valantis, Volanis, Rokkos, Liveratos, Mazonakis.

And now they have some new guy named Giorgios Tsitsilikis I think

who doesn't even have a good voice nor any business trying to sing Laika. It's all because these singers voices are too much "Elafrei"

All of these Pop singers have no Strong Voice with no depth and worse yet, They all sound too much alike. I can't even tell them apart at times.

Even Plourtahos sounds like Remos at times and vice-versa. Thats how bad it's gotten.

3) Imagine Dalaras having a soft voice like Pantazeis for example or worse Rakintzis? He wouldnt be known for that Great Powerful voice he has nor the Magic he can do on stage with songs like Paraponemena Logia, Una Monada Lei, Fantasia, Xenos, Me Teliose and many others.

4) To me when he doesn't emphasize it enough, he's not singing to his best ability and sort of holding back.

Now that doesn't mean to say he should sing Loud or Strong on every song, then he would be an Opera singer like Frangoulis or Pavoratti.

But lately, there has been some controversy in the last Live cd recordings he has released has it being he's not singing loud or High as he used too and that we feel this is not the same Dalaras we've come to known. He does sing very High on the Tsitsanis cd but unfortunetely it's only on the last song. All of the others are not to bad but not very High from him singing either as he used too. If you look at the Live Unplugged cd, there are some songs of Tsitsanis he sang on there as that from the Tribune, and the Unplugged sounds a lot better only because he sings stronger on that cd Perhaps because he is singing in a higher pitch or key as we say in music (Tonos).

5)) this is further bad because after seeing Dalaras the 1st time and even the 2nd time Live, it has never been the same lasting memorial performance since then. They say after you see Dalaras the very first time, it's never quite the same impression again from there on at least thats how I've come to know it from the last 10-20 years ago. Alot of this is partly due now to him getting older, singing less and of course allowing the audience to finish singing the songs for him.

If you ever had the chance to experience seeing Dalaras Live from the early 90's or late 80's when his voice was in his prime and the Live recordings eventaully got better as the years went by,

You will know then what I'm talking about.

I'ts how he enunciates those high notes with such force and volume while still sounding sweet like golden honey because of his singing technique and control when to hold it and lay back.

That alone can just literally send vibrations to you as you sit there absorbing it all in and wanting to partake in more from his voice.

There's no way at all this effect could be achieved if he did not sing as loud on these songs if he sang them softly the way he does now for this song.

6) One does not get to be compared or reknown as one of the great singers in the world if he cannot push his voice out and make his prescense be known . To me thats who George Dalaras is!!!!

singers like michael jackson and others like him

could never make their voice sound loud nor stand out with any prescence as it's already light to begin with and No Range.

And I would never listen to Dalaras like I do now if he sang like him or them.

:blink:

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You know what. When people say "I ONLY like him when he does... this-or-that", I always feel they are depriving themselves of something. Denying themselves something. Isn't it a waste?

Aren't you much richer is you listen to, and enjoy, what is there - that is, all the seventeen different voices of Dalaras... rather than wanting only that one voice that impressed you in the beginning?

I don't mean you have to like everything, that would not make sense.

I mean it's a pity to let your expectations prevent you from enjoying what is actually there .

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Well well well... It seems that the argument is going on and on and this is promossing :)

Too many items for one CD... Let's try to answer to some of them...

About Dalaras change in his tune in Live performances...

Notice that he was not singing alone....it was a "rempetikh kompania". So he can't take the mike and start singing like he does in his personal concerts...and that's exactly the idea of these concerts: a singer and choir.

In '99 his voice was still powerful... In H Asfaltos pou trexei it is still the same! (Has anybody of you tried to sing H Asfaltos pou trexei?)

I know that you feel that his age may influence his performance. But he is smart enough to identify his limits and prevent himself from any "tune-trap"... However he never disappointed us (at least me).

John Barleycorn: The first time I heard this song...I fell down from laughing!!! I couldn't believe that D was singing in English...and in a very good (for me) accent! I thought that he would never sing in English (because of his political orientation...). But he did it ...and very good!

Skiladiko: is the place were lay-songs are performed live....lacking taste and artistic touch...and people go just to have some fun...without caring who is singing what... place for "glenti".

Songs in these places are usually dancing, fast rhythms but, still, greek music...

The first 60 times I heard To Palto...I had the impression that it was a new-version of some old rempetika which were about coats (one of them performed by D: H Paltoudia - which i ADORE!)...

I heard some other old rempetika about coats...so the whole subject, plus the usual tunes did not impress me..Don't forget that there were much powerful songs in that CD...

I liked it when i heard it Live... it deleted my skuladiko-like impression...But still I can't understand why "his old coat"...there are so many other subjects?!!!!!!

Here is a challenge:

Από περάσματα κρυφά μέσα σε κούφιες ώρες

των Φαραώ οι μπόρες και τα πρωτότοκα παιδιά

πήραν κοράλλι και χρυσό σου φτιάξαν πανοπλία

έξω απ' την αμαρτία σου φυλακίσαν την καρδιά

Can you give me the meaning of these lyrics? The MEANING and NOT the TRAVSLATION... I've been trying to analize them with friends for years.... but they are so nicely, poetically and brilliantly written that I couldn't get a certain explanation.

Olga...Try ’λλο θα πει αισθάνομαι and tell me what do you feel when you listen to it...

I liked Christo's point towards the commercial Laika...(eisai Elladiths, Xristo?) I'm asking because I hardly find people in Greece with that kind of systematized and ordered clear thoughts!

But sometimes I feel that you are more perfectionist than Dalaras himself... Remember he is human too..He has regreted for many of his songs and works...

I know that we got used to get D's CD and enjoy ALL the songs... but we don't share the exact same tastes...

About the effect of "loud songs" in Dalaras career, you are absolutely right...

The Rempetika played a great part in his early career...but the loud songs made him a legend (Personally I became one of his "believers" because of his loud songs...)...but remember, Loudness was the voice of a political party at those days... (hmmmmmmmmm Hasta Siempre - and no further comments). When you grow up your tunes go down stepwise... That's what's hapenning with D...

New generations should continue the "loud songs"...but the only loud songs they could make were those which get us a headache...

I'm telling you, all, again that I'm very happy we are in the middle of a fruitful multibranched argument... Keep going...

B)

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I liked Christo's point towards the commercial Laika...(eisai Elladiths, Xristo?) I'm asking because I hardly find people in Greece with that kind of systematized and ordered clear thoughts!

But sometimes I feel that you are more perfectionist than Dalaras himself... Remember he is human too..He has regreted for many of his songs and works...

Ela Pano

B)

Me Sehoris, Den To katalaveno afto to Lexi?

"Elladiths" hmm not sure of this word, Den to'xo akouski afto pote.

What do you mean by the Greek or Greeklish word?

:blink:

As far as me being a perfectionist to Dalaras

HA Never!

However, I do strive at times when I hear his music and compare it to my own and others. So maybe there is a part of me wanting to admire him in my thoughts and put every effort to making my ideas, compositions, and arguments, etc., more to his liking 'perfectionp;

but hey now, come on lets just be realistic for the moment and say

I don't even come close to D or his ideology.

Yeah I may have met the man momentarily

but certainly not enough to interview him or rehease with him or even hang out with the guy for any length of period of time to know what he likes or how he thinkgs. So therefore, I can only prespire and emulate what he likes and thinks as that too fits my interests and well point of view in some of these topics of discussion in here.

:)

And thank you for the link to Haste Simpre.

Why the translation in Russion though?

Is it because their founders of Communism to Cuba?

And the music score is good too

but can you imagine trying to write out score and decipher as to what Dimeola is playing from his licks in the song they composed together?

holy smokes!

that would be an all mighty challenge only he could do

or a computer.

:wow:

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And thank you for the link to Haste Simpre.

  Why the translation in Russion though?

Is it because their founders of Communism to Cuba?

:)B):wow: And why not? Some of the Forum members understand Russian better than Spanish :razz::razz::razz:

Seriously speaking, was that not because of the visit of Giorgos Dalaras in Moscow during the Youth Festival (1980, if I am not mistaken).

Ira, help, please! I can sincerely not remember, if this was connected with the Olympic.......

Somewhere in the "Dalaras Photos" we have those ones from this visit, some months ago already.....

Edit: It was told today in our TV, W.I.Lenin was an owner of a Rolls Royce, Silver Ghost model. Sounds like a good joke, don't you think?

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Seriously speaking, was that not because of the visit of Giorgos Dalaras in Moscow during the Youth Festival (1980, if I am not mistaken).

Ira, help, please! I can sincerely not remember, if this was connected with the Olympic.......

Somewhere in the "Dalaras Photos" we have those ones from this visit, some months ago already.....

It was in 1985... (it was not connected with the Olympic).

And I was there.

But I didn't hear anything about Dalaras then :)

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Bolszoje Tebe spasibo! A Tebe nravitsa zdes' russkij tekst?

I found the photos (after more than twenty minutes searching.....) Dalaras Photos, pages 61-63 +67.

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Don't jump to conclusions folks... I found accidentally a site with more than one translation and sent it... :razz: It has nothing to do with Lenin, USSR, communism, Cuba etc... :)

Elladiths: Is a native Greek. The term is used usually by Greeks who live abroad. Egw eimai Aiguptiwths Ellhnas...and I'm not sure that you'll find the meaning of Aiguptiwths in a dictionary...and it does not mean Egyptian, but a foreigner who lives in Egypt! You see in the past there were too many Greeks in Egypt and the Greek vocabulary was enriched with more precise terms and names B)

I asked if you were Elladiths, because you like Dalaras!!! Also because you don't like songs of low level and quality...

In Greece it is very rare to find anybody who really admires D...or who hates the "bad- quality" Laika... (I'm talking through my experience).

On the other hand, Greeks abroad adore Dalaras...Kala einai ta laika kai ta ftwxo-tsiftetelia...but Dalaras has his own throne!

Dimeola's performance makes the song a double-masterpiece!

The weather in Leicester has improved finally, but about myself:

Το ίδιο παλτό ακόμα φορώ

σαν στάχτη σαν χώμα το γκρίζο του χρώμα

Gia na mhn paraponietai kaneis... :wow:

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In Greece it is very rare to find anybody who really admires D...or who hates the "bad- quality" Laika... (I'm talking through my experience).

all I can say is, my experience on that point is different from yours.

as for To Palto.

Am I the only one who traces the line of descent from Πάλιωσε το σακάκι μου... και δεν μπορώ να πάρω άλλο (the Tsitsanis song, δλδ.) ?

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Your experience is much diferent!!!!! Lucky you are!!! But...would you like giving it another try?

About To Palto...I heard in the past a very old rempetiko where the singer doesn't want to buy a new coat...

And I still prefer Thn Paltoudia...

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Actually, my experience is fairly varied, and expanding almost daily, on exactly that subject. You see, I am very visibly non-Greek (a woman of 36 who does not die her grey hair can not be Greek - aside from all the other characteristics). Λοιπον, I get asked very often, by all sorts of people, "how come you speak greek so well?" (which I don't, I speak Greek very badly, but apparently for a foreigner to speak Greek at all is to speak greek "well"...).

My standard answer is: "I learned it from the songs of Giorgos Dalaras".

So people at once tell me what they think of him.

Do you know how often I've heard (variations on) "well, everybody seems to say bad things about him but I like him rather". Another one I hear a lot is: "oh, yes, he is a great singer, but.... -not as great as Kazantzidis... -I don't like the way he does his hair... -he's got weird opinions about politics..." and so on.

One guy told me "you foreigners, you all like Dalaras so much, why do all the foreigners like Dalaras so much? he's good, sure, but Kazantzidis (etc)......"

I answered him what Semina Digeni said: "ένας τραγουδιστής που τραγουδάει ελληνικά, αλλά μιλάει σ' όλο τον κόσμο" A singer who sings Greek music in the Greek language, but who has something to say to the whole world and everyone in it.

To get back on topic.

I still haven't found out which is the (French) original of that song that sends right over the borders of the world, every time: Krymmena kleidia.

But I am an unturned head, as they say around here - I'll find out. Some day.

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Well you're replying to yourself: "You see, I am very visibly non-Greek (a woman of 36 who does not die her grey hair can not be Greek - aside from all the other characteristics).".

You can imagine how "diplomatic" are the answers you get... Personally I got answers that made me mad...some people criticised D's personal life attitude!!!!!!!

To our topic:

Keep searching for the original song of Krymmena kleidia.

For today - actually, for tomorrow - here is a verse that made me think and think for a looooooong time...till I got the answer:

μα να λέει σ' αγαπώ ποιος αντέχει

Have a nice thought... :)

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Geske Posted on Mar 31 2004, 08:04 PM

I still haven't found out which is the (French) original of that song that sends right over the borders of the world, every time: Krymmena kleidia.

But I am an unturned head, as they say around here - I'll find out. Some day.

Geske, une piste peut-etre: mon professeur de danse grecque dit que c'est une chanson bretonne, interpretee par le groupe "Triyann" (je n'ai aucune idee de l'orthographe de son nom)...

Bonne chance et bon courage!

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I know Tri Yann a bit - mostly by reputation, not from having listened to them much; they started off as a long-haired folk group and then went "electric", I think. Their discografy is pretty huge, so Irina, if you could extract a song title from your teacher, it would help...

It's a bit strange because the song we want is supposed to be from Southern France, not Celtic France, but then again, songs and singers often like to ignore borders.

Panos, I'll check your link as soon as I can.

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I'm chosing this part of the forum to congratulate Gesce...not only for the Translation of To Kako, but because by reading the Greek lyrics thoroughly, my affection to that song increased more and more ...

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it's nice of you to say so, even though I don't deserve praise.

It's a record full of surprises. Want a real shock? try the lyrics of Esoterikes Eidiseis.

The song is so quiet, it goes right by you - until you listen to what he's actually singing about. A sort of State of the Nation address. Except this makes more sense (instead of less) as you listen more closely.

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The quite manner of that song is the right type that suits it.... Of course, I noticed it since ages, but I thought that its "message" will interest more the Greeks themselves... It's part of the Black Bible of modern Greek culture and society!

We hear it...we nod... and we do nothing but following its lyrics in action...

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The quite manner of that song is the right type that suits it.... Of course, I noticed it since ages, but I thought that its "message" will interest more the Greeks themselves... It's part of the Black Bible of modern Greek culture and society!

We hear it...we nod... and we do nothing but following its lyrics in action...

Don't think this applies to Greece only, my dear, the "message" has become rather universal, sadly. The effects of globalization :)

Tri Yann discography as the source of "Krymmena kleidia". An interesting information Irina !

It makes more sense. An origin in Brittany seems more likely than the south of France.

Listening to the song again (I still don't like it at all :music: sorry friends) doesn't trigger any memory though.

I hope your teacher will know the title of the song Irina.

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It's ok if it doesn't trigger anything to you... who says that it should be?

Personally the lyrics attract me, but as separate independant-from-each-other-quotes....also the instrumental part in the refrain...

So you see Annmarie...even when we agree about a song, each one of us has his/her different personal reasons :)

Any news from Tri Yann ?

:music:

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I'm afraid I didn't make myself very clear :)

1 . I hoped that by listening to the song again while keeping in mind a possible Breton origin I might recognise something in it, some memory of dimly remembered folk songs .

I concentrated on the music of course, since I suppose the lyrics have nothing to do with the possible original folk song.

Nothing happened though.

Our best hope of getting more precise information at the moment is Irina's teacher, I suppose.

Tri Yann discography is very extensive as Geeske noted and you would have to be familiar with it to find something.

2. My apologise were not for not liking the song but for repeating myself... :pity: we had quite a long discussion about this song when the CD came out.

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