Κρυμμένα κλειδιά

[Geske 37]

Obviously I know where to find this song

But Michael stated somewhere that Krymmena Kleidia is a French song really. I had noticed it said 'greek lyrics by...' in the credits, and wondered. Now I'm really curious!!

WHAT is the original?

[Michael 2]

Both of us are right, Geeske:

The cover and the booklet of the CD "I asfaltos pou trexei" say about the song "Krymmena kleidia" the following:

"Παραδοσιακό Νότιας Γαλλίας

Διασκευή, Ελληνικοί στίχοι: Μάνος Ξυδούς"

That means:

"Traditional (folk song) from Southern France

adaptation and Greek lyrics: Manos Ksydous"

Geeske, you ask: "WHAT is the original?"

Concerning myself I can only tell you: I do not know it. And I think the same applies to most of the listeners of the CD. (Maybe the French members of the Club know a certain "original version". I could imagine - as it is a traditional song - that there is not even a specific "original version".)

And such things are of course part of my critics and a characteristic example for the "filter Dalaras":

Dalaras presents us a song unknown to most of his listeners (I assume). So it is already difficult to have an imagination how it sounds in one of its authentic versions. But nevertheless many people will be enthusiastic about hearing something from which they do not even know in which extent it is a bastardization of the original - only because it is presented to them by Dalaras.

And Dalaras (and his team of musicians) does not show at least the respect to present this song in an authentic way. No - what happens? Manos Ksydous makes a "diaskevi" ("adaptation" ) of the song and Dalaras makes the orchestration. THEY decide how a traditional french song has to sound and they change it in the way they like. Obiously the authentic (or: "a" authentic) form of it is not good enough for them. So we have in this song saxophone, keyboards and computers (instruments I think that are not in use in traditional French folk music).

(And to my mind this orchestration sounds really TERRIBLE!)

But again many people will praise Dalaras for his wide musical horizon and will be thankful that he made them acquainted now with French folk music too. Once again the filter Dalaras works. And once again the "victim" is the original (authentic) music and culture in general!!

PS: And now I await a new wave of anger and indignation about my terrible and respectless way of thinking and writing.

(Edited by Michael at 2:43 pm on Aug. 18, 2001)

[Geske 37]

I see! I hadn't got the whole meaning of what's in the cd booklet. Thanks.

I'll try a little indignation, but I'm afraid I understand your point of view too well to call you any names.

However, history has its uses... Consider:

Every old folk song was new once. Every authentic tradition was once revolutionary.

The formal man's coat with swallow's tails, now worn only by undertakers and ushers, was once a highly informal costume for horse-riding, not admitted in the house.

A great French writer (Marguerite Yourcenar) translated Sappho's. Odyseas Elytis commented: "These are new French poems, not Sappho's work". And she said: "is there any other way, in poetry?" For a translation can be for cribbing (Abgucken) while reading the original (like the ones in our forum) - or it can be a poem in its own right.

When List pinched a theme from Bach and ran amok with it all over the piano, he was not being authentic - he was being himself.

When Verdi heard a peasant singing outside the window and turned it into an aria, he was not being a musicologist - he was being a composer.

In Krymmena Kleidia, I don't see a French song, authentic or not. I see a Dalaras song. A beautiful authentic Dalaras song. If you liked the song, you might think so too...

This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate when he does traditionnal material the traditional way! I might even concede that it could perhaps be good if he did some more of it.

But: the greater the artist, the more important it is for him to be authentically himself, rather than authentically traditional.

Or else, all the traditions will soon be dead, dust & ashes.

[Annemarie 19]

Well, I can't recognize anything either.

Not a single note to remind me of a folk song from the south of France where I come from and where I live. I must admit I don't much appreciate that song : too much ketchup in the sauce. A few spoonfuls of French "aioli" or Greek skordalia might have made it more tasty and keep a light flavour of it's origin. And if the origins of an adaptation are of no importance, as you seem to think, Geeske, why mention them at all? As far as I know, there is no copyright on traditional songs.

Well, this is just my humble view !

[Geske 37]

I don't mean that the origin is of no importance.

I do mean it is not the only, or even the most, important thing.

[Michael 2]

Annemarie, it is good to hear the opinon of someone who indeed knows the original sound of such a song. Thank you for your clear statement.

Geeske, of course you can see it from the aspect that an artist is entitled to change a still existing song, poem etc. in the way he likes. But on the other hand you can also see it as a lack of respect towards the original and towards the other culture. And that is my point of view. Especially in this case as I do not regard it a convincing artistic performance to use synthesizer and computers in a way that a traditional song sounds like a simple pop song as we can hear it permanently (and everywhere in the western countries).

Therefore I think in this case we should not compare Dalaras with Verdi or Liszt but with musicians like James Last or Richard Klayderman which made quite simple pop arrangements of classical music. I assume we all know such arrangements from Mozart's "Little Night Music", Beethovens "Freude schoener Goetterfunken" (from his 9th Symphony) etc.etc. and I also assume that no one will argue that these arrangements are in any way equivalent to the originals.    

And when you write, Geeske:

"In Krymmena Kleidia, I don't see a French song, authentic or not. I see a Dalaras song. A beautiful authentic Dalaras song."

That's exactly the problem! That's the "filter Dalaras" I already mentioned a couple of times . We know music (non-greek, but in a certain way it applies to greek music too) only in the way in which Dalaras it is presenting to us. And this is dangerous because we lose the view for the original. We do not speak and think any longer about a French folk song (for example) but about a Dalaras song.

And in a certain way I agree with you, Geeske, when you write: "... the greater the artist, the more important it is for him to be authentically himself, ...". Yes, BUT: He should show his authenticity with his OWN works (= songs written for him and interpreted by him for the first time). And we have enough examples for such songs in case of Dalaras (you have to think only of most of the quotations in the song "Kalynixta": "Kapou niytonei", "Stin alana", "I Fantasia" etc.etc.) To use OTHER (= still existing) material, to change its character often in a way that it suits to my taste (or to the taste which I think that it is the one of my listeners) - this does not create something authentic from this artist.

PS: I do not ignore that there may be some fields of music where the things are more complicated. I think of the relation Dalaras - Rebetiko (on the one hand: interpretations not really "authentic", on the other hand: nevertheless wonderful interpretations). But to discuss this now would lead us too far away from what happened with the French song.  

[Geske 37]

The simile of the 'filter' may not be the right one.

I think Dalaras is taking nourishment from all the music that he hears and plays, and giving it back to us in a different form - like a plant absorbing on sunlight and giving back flowers.

Roses are not authentic sunlight... but no one faults the rosebush!

And I still think you would speak differently if you happened to like these songs.

If you liked them, you would not keep hinting that Dalaras is acting from non-artistic motivations - doing the song in this way because he wants to be modern, to play with syntethisers, to sell more records, to reach a wider audience... It's an unpleasant suspicion to have, about an artist one loves/respects. I don't envy you these thoughts.

I'm willing to believe most singers could do it, but not this one. Freude an die Musik, remember?

[sarantiis 5]

Michael,thanks again for showing us what an wonderful_guy you are!!! Your ignorance continious to amaze us!! Im sure Glad Jimmy Hendrix did not listen to guys like you when he redid Bob Dylans song "All along the watchtower"..Bob Dylan had already made the song famous and then Hendrix remade it his way and behold they are both classics today..Both versions are classics.There have been hundreds of remakes of songs that have turned into classics by both artists.The Beatles are another example...So, you give us a few instances where Dalaras has remade a song his way and somehow you have a problem with it.So, according to you artists should not ever remake other artists songs .......

[Michael 2]

I cannot continue the discussion here. The reasons will be found in my posting in the topic "Members"!

(Edited by Michael at 10:32 pm on Aug. 18, 2001)

[nikolas 86]

Krymmena Kleidia

Inspired by this topic, I want to express my opinion.

First of all, I want to say that I am exceptionally sensitive when it comes to tradition, I adore it, especially music and dances but also all other aspects of it. And now I go on.

If I remember well, it was Manos Hatzidakis who said that the talented ones "steal" from others and the untalented just copy others. George Dalaras is not a singer of traditional music. He can't be such one. Traditional songs are not just the music or the lyrics. They are also  the instruments, the orchestration and of course the accent! In very few words, it is not simple at all. Hronis Aidonidis, the most famous and best representative of traditional music of Thrace would not be even average if hetried to sing songs of Epirus. Just an example. So, when a modern artist, like Dalaras, interprets such a song, we shall not judge this action comparing to the traditional way. It is unfair for both. Respect to tradition in such a case is not proved by the authenticity (then the game is lost before played) but probably by the fact of working with such a song itself. Traditional music is not promoted. When a popular singer presents it to people who forgot it or even don't know it, it is a type of respect. If Dalaras really wanted to do something bad with this song, he would maybe avoid to mention what this song is, where it comes from etc. I have plenty examples that others do so! Dalaras is a musician and considers such tries part of his work. He just gives us his idea of the song. And I really appreciate it. I don't compare to the original. There is no comparison.

I mention the example of "Sto pa kai sto xanaleo". How many people discovered this diamond because of Dalaras. Of course ungratefulness is  there. After Dalaras said it, you can hear many saying that the preferred the first version...It doesn;t happen only with Dalaras but it happens. Many people don't know an old song, they hear it from a new singer and then they suddenly prefer the first version...ridiculous! Anyway...(Sfakianakis recently sang "H mpalanta tou kyr Mentiou", first by Nikos Xylouris and then everyone preferred the first version...Noone knew this song!)

As I have been involved in many traditional dance and music presentations, I ensure you that we would never invite an orchestra to play with bouzouki and guitar or keyboards. In such cases, I want the authentic form. The authentic instruments, authentic voices, authentic costumes etc. But I would be unfair to judge Dalaras according to such criteria. That is all.

p.s: I have heard Krimmena kleidia on the radio...I mean the original version. Of course, after Dalaras sang it in Greek...

[Annemarie 19]

Nikola, I'm very happy to have your opinion on that song.

I fully agree with you : there is no sense in comparing a traditionnal song (or at least the version of a song usually accepted as such) with a new adaptation of it.

My personal objection to the song is just that : personal.

When, looking at my new cd, I  first saw the mention of 'traditionnal french song, adaptation', I was all expectation thinking "let's see what he has done with it".

Because, (as Sarantis once wrote), it has been my belief that "he couldn't lead us astray" and I've been very happy to follow him so far and to widen my horizon.

So, I listened to the song with expectation and was very disappointed.

Nothing to please me there ...(please, don't shoot anybody, I would like to live a little longer).

To me the only redeeming feature is that it is sung in Greek which is so melodious a tongue and that DALARAS is singing. Don't shoot still !!!!

As I said before this is my personal view  and I shall be very happy if someone can make me see the beauty that most of you seem to find in that song.

Because I believe, this is what a forum is for = discussion.

[nikolas 86]

Annemarie

If I notice someone moving his/her hands to his/her belt, I will play the Louky Louk game...don't worry!

:gun:

[sarantiis 5]

Annemarie, you have every right to be dissapointed in any song including Dalaras songs.I never said i loved every song that dalaras has sung..Thats why we use the skip button on a CD player..Anyway,overall though Dalaras has done many remakes of songs that have turned out great and are wonderful songs.This does not mean(as some have implied)that Dalaras is disrespecting a song or composer or a country because he remakes a song.Remakes as i said before are a good thing in some cases...It gives a song a different feel and flavor.I used the Jimmy Hendrix analises before about his remake of Bob Dylans song "All along the watchtower" both turned into classics...Eric Clapton remade "laila" ...It was his song and he redid it two different ways 20 years apart.Two completely different songs.So,i think remakes are fine to do..We can choose whether we like them or not...

NIKOLA, that was great about the animation of a gun shooting in your post...You are good!!! "pos to ekanes".Can you make one of Dalaras playing a guitar?? lets see how good you really are..

[Annemarie 19]

Thank you Sarantis for your kind reply to my post.

You have hit the nail right upon the head with your mention of the skip button !

Do you know, up to now, I had never found it necessary to use this button when listening to a Dalaras cd (True to say, I don't own more than 40 cds).

I fully agree with you : remakes can be very good in some cases (you give convincing examples).

I agree with Nikolas too when he writes that Dalaras is a modern artist, not a singer of traditionnal songs therefore his interpretation shouldn't be compared to the traditionnal way.

All this is perfectly true ! What, then, is my complaint?

Let's take the song again : 1) try to replace the Greek words by words in any other language, italian, german, french, english, spanish, etc.

2) now replace Dalaras voice and singing and give the song to any popular singer of these countries.

When this is done, do you honestly believe that listeners in those countries will recognize the song as belonging to the repertoire of Greek popular music ? I fear not.

It will be a song - quite pleasant to most ears maybe, but  without the strong identity that is usually found in Greek popular music.

This is were my complaint lies : there are too many such songs already!

I would prefer Dalaras to stay away from them.

I'm not young anymore and probably too prone to worrying but the whole process reminds me too strongly of what happened to typical french "chanson". It has disappeared completely washed over by so-called "international" songs.

Maybe this is a new European trend : the future will be in "European popular music" rather than national ones (According to Geeske there are only two countries left with strong typical popular music already). All this might be unavoidable, I agree,but I find it very hard to accept.

This being said I am strongly of the opinion that Dalaras is free to do exactly as he chooses. Be assure that it will take more than one unsatisfactory cd to make me stop being a Dalaras fan, listen to him everyday and chase him all over Europe to attend his concerts !

I hope you all understand my intention is not to offend anyone but to share my anxiety.

Annemarie

P.S. Louky Louk, I'll have no hesitation going to Maroussi now, knowing that you will be there to pull out your gun if need be ...

[Geske 37]

Nikola, you make sense. Lots of sense.

When you say 'now they say they prefer the original - but no one knew it before!' That is SO true. People do that without even realising their hypocrisy. If they were fair, they would say 'I loved the new version, and then went and discovered the traditional, and loved that too'.

These clashes between "authentic traditionnal" and "authentic personal" - they occur everywhere. My experience with them is not in music, but in historical re-enactment, but they're just the same there. And most people don't want to understand that it's just two different, equally valid approaches! And that a tradition is something you have to be born into, grow up in - not just a costume you put on. There are exceptions, but not many.

Dalaras, now, he knows. He knows who/what he is, and who/what he is not. He will explore, invent, steal, adopt... new things, but he will not pretend to be what he isn't. (Did I mention lately how much I admire him?)

About the song.

There is this gap between "what the song sounds like" and "what I expect the song to sound like".

Suppose you like both tea and coffee; suppose you pick up your mug and take a sip, expecting coffee - and it is tea: it will taste foul!

Suppose you like both pop songs and traditionnal music; now you put on a new song, expecting a traditional - and it's got all these synthetisers and so on... it will sound awful!

Here is where ignorance was my friend, with Η άσφαλτoς που τρέχει - I never even deciphered the titles before playing it, let alone knew the meaning. I'm not saying this is the proper approach to music, not at all!! (or I wouldn't be here picking everyone's brains) but in this case, it worked real fine.

Annemarie, I just went an played κρυμμένα κλειδιά 'for you', trying to think what I could tell you, to make you hear the beauty I hear. In vain. Maybe this might help: if you could forget that you once hoped for a southern French traditionnal song - and listen with new ears, to a penetrating, almost anguished, modern song. (On oublie tout et on recommence). I'm not sure it can be done though. And you might still not like it anyway. Well, I use the 'skip' button too sometimes

Nikola - your p.s. - do you mean that the French original of Κρυμμένα κλειδιά was aired on Greek radio? You couldn't tell us the Fench title, or anything about it, please? I'm being devoured by curiosity here!

Finally, did you folk ever notice? There is a distinct prejudice againt covers and remakes, in modern music - in pop, most of all. This means a flood of indifferent 'original' songs, and a quick forgetting of very good songs - songs that deserved more, different, and better treatments by different artists.  It's a pity, I think.

[soc 1]

a) I don't think there is a "right" way of aproaching music. Music is the life itself. You wash your left hand in the shower firtst I wash my right shoulder. You read the lyrics first I look at the pictures. That is why all of us are entitled to our arguments. And to our tastes. And you know what else? It;s nice not to like a song now and then.It makes the myth go away

Geeske, I know what Annemarie should do. First she should stop saying that she is not young anymore because from her posts she looks like a girl full of life to me and that is beautiful. And that is also what matters. Then she should start playing "Krymmena kleidia" in mute. almost until the end. When the song is almost at the end she should raise the volume to the loudest possible. And listen to him playing the outi. And then again. And then she has to do it again but this time she can turn the volume on a bit earlier when he sings while playing outi. That will take some time. Then do the same with the tzoura. That will do it. Dear Annemarie, am I making sense? (I am of course partially kiding, but not really. Try it)

c) Dear webmaster, be careful with that gun.

(Edited by soc at 1:33 am on Aug. 26, 2001)

(Edited by soc at 1:34 am on Aug. 26, 2001)

[Geske 37]

French Chanson was indeed washed away by international drivel - I've seen it happen before my eyes... (are we the same age after all, Annemarie ?) No. I'm trying to joke, but really is heart-breaking.

Will it happen to Greek music too? Perhaps.

If so, there is not much we can do about it. As Soc remarks (infuriating man - always right!) 'music is the life itself'. There is indeed something very biological about the way it grows and flowers and spreads and dies - and sends up unexpected shoots in strange corners... We can water it (με της καρδιάς τον χτύπο) and maybe pull a few weeds, but not manipulate it.

And that is our hope of course. The Authority - the Powers that Be - can kill the poet, but it's the poet who is remembered and who inspires those who come after. (What's got into her - you ask... κόκκινο τριαντάφυλλο has, I'm reading Fallaci's book on Panagoulis).

To complete the comparison: the uninspired, uninspiring trash will not be remembered, for just that reason: it is uninspiring...

Let's not lose heart. French chanson may be dead (or at least hibernating), but it is regretted and not forgotten, and I hope to live to see a worthy descendant of it storm the stages of the world.

And Greek music is still very much alive and kicking. And feeding on strange foods, and sending up shoots in unexpected places.

[Annemarie 19]

Dear friends, just a few minutes between visitors to answer you.

Nikola, do you mean you have the title of that French song? Please, what is it? Perhaps I didn't make this point perfectly clear, but I still don't have a clue what that song could be !

Soc, my friend, about my "not being young anymore" : I do think it is important to mention it as I believe it can give a different colouring to my words. If we were discussing face to face you would just see it and take it into account (positively or negatively). But I promise, if it makes you (or others) uncomfortable, I won't refer to it anymore.

To reassure you, yes I'm enjoying life to the full ! The disease is very common after all...

Dear philosopher, I did exactly (almost) as you suggested : yes the outi, the tzoura, very good indeed....but how do they manage to make that screetching noise in the background and what is this irritating beat that keeps intruding on Dalaras beautful singing???? (Ouch! Christo will have my skin that is for sure! No offense meant though, my only excuse : honesty has always been my creed).

And I'm sorry Geeske, Sarantis, I can't push the skip button, that's impossible.

Why ? Well, HE is singing that's why ! beautifully as usual.

Soc I read your point a) very carefully. Not a word there I don't agree with.

Therefore, let's forget Krymmena kleidia and address the more important isssue, the matter that is worrying me : the future of Greek popular music.

(Dear webmaster,should we move to another topic?)

Geeske writes : "French Chanson was indeed washed away by international drivel... Will it happen to Greek music too? Perhaps. If so there is not much we can do about it."

I find this hard,very hard to accept. Dalaras has managed to hold the fort so far. But as Anna said once, he won't sing for ever.

What is going to happen? I hope some of you have more optimitiscs comments to make on the subject even if I shan't be able to read them till the end of the month. I'm going to Greece!!!

[Geske 37]

Annemarie - about the future of our separate identities (musical or otherwise) - go get 'Les identites meurtrieres' by Amin Maalouf.

Go on, get it!

I've just been re-reading it again and have had to restrain myself not to start translating at least half of it right into this forum, because it is SO relevant (and ow! that man can write).

For the others: the english translation is due in september.

[soc 1]

Dear Annemarie, nothing of what you say makes me uncomfortable (so don't change the way you are writing), and please don't feel you are on the spot because you are commenting on a song. This is a very civilized exchange of views between people who can appreciate beauty.

The future of greek music? That is a tough one. After Dalaras stops, which is very sad for us first and then for greek music, I don;t know what will happen. Fortunately, there many young people that I know, who are listening to good greek music and can appreciate it. I want to mention some names just to show that there is future, and these names are mentioned very often by Dalaras himself. Katsimicha brothers, Malamas, Peridis, Famelos, Thivaios, Tsaligopoulou, Andreou, and others who I can't remember right now have the qualuty and the potential to keep the greek music where it belongs. And they are all young. For me Dalaras is one and only and there will not be another one, but hope dies last. Everyhting that is recorded, will stay with us, and after us, for a long long time. And as Dalaras said once, who knows? Maybe in a small, low-ceiling home somewhere in Athens, a little girl is born who will be able to sing like Haris Alexiou or Marinella.

PS: Please, let's not start a discussion about what will happen when Dalaras retire, because it is a very sad issue, to the extend of a nightmare, and at the same time it shows great disrespect to a man whose voice, according to my insgnificant opinion, is at its best shape.

[nikolas 86]

I heard this song on the radio station soc loves so much, Melodia FM. It was in the first days of July, maybe end of June, I remember it was in Patra because here we don't have Melodia FM...

As most expected by someone who listens to this station, I heard it on Kostas Thomaidis' hours. This guy is also a well known singer and has very big knowledge and experience in music and songs from all over the world. All songs that Dalaras "steals" from other countries, you usually can hear them after in his two daily hours. There you can listen to original Luna Rossa for example. There, I heard Krimmena Klidia in the original version. But I didn't catch him in the introduction of this track so I don't remember the title. In fact, even if I had heard the title, I would have not remembered it...I am sure!

Annemarie, I have a very close friend from Rians, near Marseille. Do you think I should ask her?

I have to confess that around 70% of the time, my tuner was on this station. Only in the last year it was less. Because I tuned to Sport-fm...you know, we love sports!

http://www.sport-fm.gr

http://www.melodia.gr

[soc 1]

Chris, I was not mistaken. I just paraphrased Dalaras because I imagined that our foreign friends wouldn't know Kaiti Grey. I randomly chose Haroula and Marinela because they are better known and that served the point I wanted to make. Thanks for puting things in order though.

[soc 1]

Nikola,

you know that if you try to get Melodia on your computer now you get Sport FM. Maybe they did it for you.....

[Geske 37]

Not for you, Soc?

[Annemarie 19]

Guys, so many interesting posts to reply to and I'm leaving, there is no time left. But thanks for all the good will and objectivity. See you in a few weeks then then.