Natalie

Who are the Dalaras fans?

144 posts in this topic

(I apologize to the foreign members for not writing in English, but I don't have much time. Try using babel fish at www.altavista.com)

Αγαπητοί Ρένα, Geeske, Ekostel, Θανάση και xxx, νομίζω ότι στην κουβέντα αυτή γίνεται ένα λάθος.

Δεν υπάρχει "ξέρω" σε αυτά τα ζητήματα. Δεν υπάρχει "ακούω καλά" ή όχι.

Όταν λέει η xxx ότι παρατηρεί πτώση στην φωνή του Νταλάρα έχει δίκιο. Δίκιο όμως έχει και η Ρένα και η Ekostel όταν λένε ότι η φωνή του Νταλάρα είναι τέλεια και άψογη.

Αυτό μπορεί να ακούγεται αντιφατικό αλλά πρέπει να καταλάβουμε ότι κάθε άνθρωπος ζητά διαφορετικά πράγματα από έναν τραγουδιστή. Μπορεί να ακούμε όλοι Νταλάρα, αλλά ο τρόπος που τον ακούμε είναι τελείως διαφορετικός.

Αυτό το κατάλαβα πολύ νωρίς όταν έβλεπα πράγματα που με ανατρίχιαζαν εμένα στην ερμηνεία του Νταλάρα να είναι τελείως αδιάφορα για άλλους (και το αντίστροφο).

Αν ένα μέλος εκφράζει την αγωνία του ότι η φωνή του Νταλάρα έχει φθαρεί δεν έχει νόημα να προσπαθήσουμε να το πείσουμε για το αντίθετο, πολύ απλά γιατί έτσι ακούει και έτσι πιστεύει. Αντίστοιχα αν ένα μέλος θεωρεί ότι η φωνή του είναι άψογη και τέλεια όπως παλιά, πάλι δεν έχει νόημα να το πείσουμε για το αντίθετο.

Για να μη μου πείτε ότι βγάζω την ουρά μου απ' έξω και ότι δεν παίρνω θέση, θα 'θελα να πω ότι και εγώ βρήκα πεσμένη την φωνή του Νταλάρα στον νέο δίσκο σε σχέση με τους παλιούς. Όμως αυτό δεν σημαίνει ότι κάποιος που βρίσκει την φωνή του τέλεια και σε αυτόν τον δίσκο κάνει λάθος.

Επίσης προσωπικά θέλω να είμαι θαυμαστής του Νταλάρα και όχι οπαδός. Το να παραδεχτώ ότι η φωνή του έχει πέσει (πράγα απόλυτα φυσιολογικό για έναν άνδρα 56 χρονών) δεν σημαίνει ότι η αγάπη μου για αυτόν μειώνεται!

Όπως και να 'χει, όπως και να τον ακούει κανείς, παραμένει ο μεγαλύτερος Έλληνας τραγουδιστής και δεν νομίζω να τον ξεπεράσει κανείς ποτέ.

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Dear members:

Could we return to the original discussion about our music tastes in general and Dalaras songs in particular?

After all arguing, the truth actually is revealed: it is OK to say there are some songs we like and some not, without giving advise how Dalaras should change his career.

Michael, you sound like an expert - may I ask what you mean by "kitch" and which songs with the Israeli Orchestra you consider that and why? Other people: would you like to share your opinions? It is interesting to know about general musical tastes, but since I personally not follow very closely the contemporary music scene, for me to know your preferences regarding Dalaras songs would be more informative.

This discussion incited me to think about my own personality, and that I have discovered: I have very traditional tastes in all types of art, I shun all avanguard - for me, Beatles are too modern (please lough if you want). It is not because I am old and behind - when everyone was crazy about Elvis and rock, I was completely unmoved. In Dalaras, I like all his Eastern and island songs, most of rembetika (although this requires understanding the lyrics), and many modern songs. Latin sounded a little strange at first, then I've come to like it (I think of all foreign interpretors of Latin songs he is the closest to the original, such as in Malaguena, but I don't like Emigrante).

I like most of his work probably because he is traditional singer in essence - even when experimenting with modern tunes he just puts a new layer over multiple traditional layers.

I mean by traditional not orthodox - it means as above: putting new creative layers over multiple lower layers created by our ancestors. Those old songs survived so many generations. I can understand that for some people they might sound boring, but that's where the singer's creative personality comes into play. For some musicians this is not enough - they want to demolish all lower layers and start from scratch: that's completely fine unless the modern tries to replace the old traditional. The time will show what will survive. We audience are so different (fortunately): some like wilderness and quiet, some like city life and movement, some like both - the same in music. Dalaras' talent is large enough for many of us: that's why so many different people come to the forum.

Hope to hear from people. Thanks.

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Να ξεκαθαρίσω κάτι -και πιο πολύ για τον φίλο Astron. Εκτιμώ πολύ τον τρόπο που γράφεις καθώς και την ευγένειά σου -όσον αφορά στα μέλη του forum. Είναι δικαίωμα του καθενός να κρίνει και να εκφράζεται με όποιο τρόπο θέλει σε σχέση με τον Νταλάρα. Ακόμα και κριτική για τη φωνή του, για τη στάση του στα πράγματα είναι θεμιτή και φυσιολογική. Έχω τις απόψεις μου κι εγώ, όπως κι όλοι. Δεν ανέχομαι όμως ,αγαπητοί φίλοι, κάποιοι να ασκούν μόνο μίζερη κριτική. Να ειρωνεύονται και να θεωρούν σωστά μόνο αυτά που λένε εκείνοι. Κι όταν κάποιος τους αντιπαρατεθεί, γίνονται πιο σκληροί. Δεν με ενδιαφέρει η λέξη fan και δεν με εκφράζει. Τη βρίσκω γελοία. Σε αυτό το forum όμως είμαστε -υποτίθεται- <<φίλοι-ακροατές>> της φωνής του Νταλάρα. Κι όχι οι ,συνεχώς,διαρκώς , μονίμως και αδιαλείπτως κατήγοροί του. Γιατί υπάρχουν κι αυτοί. Νομίζω δε, πως ηδονίζονται στη σκέψη ότι με τη στάση τους την επιθετική, μπορεί να φέρνουν σε στενάχωρη διάθεση κάποιους άλλους. Διαφέρει άλλωστε η εποικοδομητική κριτική από τη στείρα άρνηση. Κι εγώ προτιμώ τα παλιότερα τραγούδια που ερμήνευσε ο Γιώργος, αλλά δεν αρνούμαι να κατανοήσω την ομιχλώδη κατάσταση που επικρατεί στον χώρο. Έχουμε κάποιοι ελιτίστικη διάθεση επειδή δεν μας αρέσει η σκυλάδικη υποκουλτούρα ή η νεόκοπη κουλτούρα; Δεν υπάρχει κοινό σημείο στην ’ντζελα και στον Νταλάρα. ΠΟΥΘΕΝΑ!! Εκτός από την λαϊκή καταγωγή-ίσως. Επειδή δεν έχω επιχειρήματα - όπως έχω κατηγορηθεί στο παρελθόν- κάποιοι θα αντιδράσουν παραθέτοντας σειρές <<επιχειρημάτων>>.

Κανείς δεν ισχυρίχεται πως <<γνωρίζει>> καλύτερα τον Νταλάρα. Κανείς δεν ισχυρίζεται πως <<ξέρει>> να ακούει καλύτερα τον Νταλάρα. Κανείς δεν ισχυρίζεται πως αγαπάει περισσότερο τον Νταλάρα. Εγώ πάντως δεν ισχυρίζομαι πως απεχθάνομαι τον Νταλάρα. Γιατί κάποιοι -χωρίς να το ισχυρίζονται- φροντίζουν να μας δίνουν την αίσθηση της απέχθειας. Δηλώνω ,ευθαρσώς ,υπέροχα που επέλεξα να ακούω τον συγκεκριμένο καλλιτέχνη . Δηλώνω ,ευθαρσώς, πως δεν τον αντιμετώπισα ΠΟΤΕ ως το είδωλό μου(idol :blink: ), αλλά ως τον άνθρωπο-καλλιτέχνη που μπορεί να είναι πρότυπο για την κοινωνία και αρωγός της. Εκεί -ίσως- να βρίσκεται η μεγάλη διαφορά του Νταλάρα από τους υπόλοιπους. Δεν είναι ελιτίστικο αυτό, έχει σχέση με τον τρόπο που μεγαλώνουμε. Και πρέπει να ομολογήσω πως -μαζί με τον παππού μου- σενετέλεσε και ο Νταλάρας στην ανάπτυξη της κοινωνικής συνείδησής μου. Του το οφείλω. Και κάποτε θα πρέπει να τον ευχαριστήσω γι αυτό.

Στις 29 Σεπτεμβρίου γίνεται 56 ετών. Βρίσκεται συνεχώς στο προσκήνιο δραστήριος και αποτελεσματικός, χωρίς καμία διακοπή, χωρίς καμία απομόνωση. Δεν υπάρχει τέτοιο προηγούμενο με άλλον καλλιτέχνη. Ναι, Astron, μιλάμε για τον μεγαλύτερο Έλληνα τραγουδιστή. Δεν είναι μόνο δική μας άποψη, αλλά ακόμη και αυτών των <<έντιμων>>εχθρών του. Την τελευταία φορά που τον είδα -μόλις προχθές- αισθάνθηκα πως έχει ανάγκη τον καλό τον λόγο από τους ανθρώπους. Ίσως επιδιώκει τον τελευταίο καιρό την επαφή με το κοινό εξαιτίας και αυτής της ανάγκης. Έχει φτάσει 56 ετών ο μεγαλύτερος Έλληνας τραγουδιστής κι ακούει ΜΟΝΟ μίζερες και χολερικές κριτικές. Δεν τον έχουν αφήσει στιγμή κάπως ήρεμο. Αυτό δεν είναι περίεργο; Κι από την άλλη έχουμε μία σελίδα που είναι αφιερωμένη σε εκείνον και γράφονται τα μύρια όσα. Εδώ είναι η σοβαρή ένσταση μου. Συμφωνώ στην κριτική που γεννά ιδέες κι όχι στη στείρα κριτική. Δεν αναφέρομαι ,φίλε Astron, στον τρόπο που παραθέτεις εσύ τις απόψεις σου. Σε καμία περίπτωση!!! ’λλωστε σε πολλά συμφωνούμε. Απλά με αυτά που γράφεις, μου έδωσες την ευκαιρία να καταθέσω τις δικές μου και να αντιδράσω σε κάποιων άλλων τις λογικές και πρακτικές. Με τις πιο φιλικές ευχές σε όλους, συμφωνούντες και διαφωνούντες.

[Μία διευκρίνηση: μου είναι πάρα πολύ δύσκολο να απευθυνθώ στα αγγλικά για να ξεδιπλώσω τις <<κρυφές>> μου σκέψεις σε άλλη γλώσσα, εκτός της μητρικής μου. Ζητώ για μία ακόμη φορά συγγνώμη από τα υπόλοιπα μέλη. Δεν είναι πάντως από διάθεση εθνικιστική].

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Chaim Mosche sings Dalaras, Dalaras sings Hebrew songs. He is still always recognizable as a Greek singer and Dalaras - while what I meant by globalized singers was actually "interchangeable".

:rolleyes:

Hi Vitaly

I dont think we've ever met ot talked here

my names christo

tell me I'm puzzled by this person Chaim Moshce

who is he? or is this a group like a band?

where are they from? how long have they been singing Dalaras

when and what songs? boy really curious now

Incidentally, would you like to tell us how you 1st came to know

the music from Dalaras, how where and when?

thanks for your input

and nice meeting you

:)

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Hi, Christo

Nice meeting you, too.

I don't think we've met.

Chaim Mosche is a singer from Israel. I first heard Ola Kala from him - downloaded from Napster (in Hebrew). He sings both Hebrew and Arabic songs, that's why probably his concert in US was cancelled. I posted my story about Dalaras addiction on the thread "How I became addicted". Recently, I bought a CD by Haim Mosche in an Israeli store in Boston, and discovered that at least 3 songs were Greek from the Dalaras repertoir. One was Treloi kai Angeloi. I can try uploading it when get to my computer.

Na'se kala

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:music:

Sefharisto Vitaly

you know the funny thing is

I was just getting ready to post

' I read your thread in How you became to 1st hear of Dalaras'

Wonderful

The bad thing is you beat me to it before I could reply back

:D:razz:

Nevertheless, glad to have you aboard

welcome

and look forward to some of those uploads soon

:):rolleyes::blush:

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Mporei na kleisei ayto to topic tora? Mono kako nomizo pos kanei. Theoro oti o Thanasis exei dikio. Kai den ofeloun-nomizo- kritikes tou yfous "exei pesei h fonh tou''. Entaksei, to eipate mia , dyo, sas akousame, exoume diaforetikh apopsh, akouste gia paradeigma, etsi proxeira, thn kainourgia korona sto ''ths agaphs maxairia'' kai meta ksanapeite... To na epishmainete kathe treis kai ligo omos oti h fonh tou peftei einai anofelo edo alloste den eimaste panel ekpomphs Euaggelatou, an thelete na lete me to zori kai epaneilhmmenos kakoproairetes anakribeies kante to allou. Giati mono kakh proairesh deixnei auth h tash epanalhpshs. Auta, proteino tora na mh synexistei allo auto to topic kai na hremhsoun ta pneumata.

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Νομίζω ότι οι εποχές της λογοκρισίας έχουν περάσει ανεπιστρεπτί (ελπίζω τουλάχιστον...), οπότε δεν υπάρχει λόγος να προτείνουμε "να κλείσει αυτό το topic". Ίσως να μη μας ταιριάζει ο τίτλος του, καθώς ουδέποτε δηλώσαμε ή -καλύτερα- νιώσαμε "Dalaras' fans", αλλά δε μας φταίει η φτωχή Αγγλική γλώσσα που δεν μπορεί να εκφράσει αυτό που πραγματικά είμαστε. Και αυτο μην το λάβετε ως εθνικιστική θέση -απεχθάνομαι καθε τι εθνικιστικό- είναι όμως μια αλήθεια...)

Ο καθένας έχει την άποψή του, αν και για τα θλιβερά που διάβασα με τα λίγα Αγγλικά που γνωρίζω, αμφιβάλλω αν πρόκειται περί κάποιας συγκεκριμένης "άποψης" ή κάποιου ολοφάνερου κόμπλεξ! Μάλλον το δεύτερο...

Ας λέει ο καθένας ό,τι θέλει. Κάποιοι έχουν γεννηθεί για να είναι στην κορυφή και αυτό έχει το τίμημά του. Είναι θλιβερό όμως να έχουν περάσει τόσα χρόνια και ο κόσμος να εξακολουθεί να είναι τόσο μίζερος. Τώρα μας φταίει η φωνή του...παλιότερα ήταν η Κύπρος...οι μηνύσεις...... και τόσα άλλα πράγματα, τόσες επιλογές του ήταν λάθος, έτσι;

Τι να πω... Όλο λέω να σιωπήσω και να μην απαντώ γιατί ΒΑΡΕΘΗΚΑ ΒΑΡΕΘΗΚΑ ΒΑΡΕΘΗΚΑ, αλλά μου είναι τόσο δύσκολο...

Ας ακούσω λίγο Νταλάρα μπας και ηρεμήσω! Ναι ναι, αυτόν με την χάλια φωνή λέω... Τα δικά μου αυτιά, η δικιά μου καρδιά και η δική μου ζωή τον αντέχει ακόμη...

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:D Hi Vitaly

Very nice uploads thank you

and actually Chaim Mosche is not to bad

for a minute i thought it was the Oringinal Mix from Dalaras when I heard the Bouzouki.

But Vitaly I got to tell you though, Mosche is definately No Dalaras

you can hear the difference.

:D

Still though, its nice hearing someone else singing Dalaras songs and then you can truly compare the difference with his Amazing Voice.

And not for the Elevator either

:lol:

Vitaly you know this guy Chaim Mosche

sings alot like the Turkish singer Fadel

oh boy wouldnt you know it, I forgot the spelling of his name

I'll have to get back to you on that one

:D

But I tell you he has almost the same similar style singing voice that of Mosche and he is half Greek and half Turkish.

kind of looks like Kenny Rogers and even sounds like him a soft singing voice like Mosche.

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To get this topic back on topic and answer Vitaly's remark in another topic...

Yes, there does seem to be a higher prevalence of insomnia among the forum members than among a comparable random sample.

The same for: not smoking, not drinking coffee and even (but I have less data on this) for avoiding excessive alcohol.

(I may add that in all these respects I personally am atypical, since it's extremely hard to make me loose my sleep, and I am a convinced (though non-addicted) smoker, an enthusiastic coffee-drinker - and have only lately quit alcolhol but am hoping to get the hang of it again soon).

Other characteristics found among forum members more often than statistically expected are: a liking for books and reading, an involvement in education (as teacher, student, or both), an interest in politics combined with left-oriented opinions, a tendency to melancholy, a dislike for and/of distrust of television.

(These do hold for me).

PLEASE NOTE that these observations are valid only for the observable part of the forum members (those who post), therefore not reprensative of all forum members, and certainly not valid for all Dalaras fans. Also note that there are people who present none of these characteristics and who are important, I'd almost say indispensable, members of the forum.

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So, we are constant learners (mainly because interested in too many things and not able to stick to just one or two), prefer tea (is tea better associated with melancholy than coffee?), keep books scattered around (handy in case of sleeping trouble), don't have patience for TV commercials, and frustrated, stopped turning it on at all...

Our leftist inclinations can be also a result of not having enough time and patience to make money. It looks like the picture is getting clearer...

Hi, Christo:

I never said you can compare Chaim Mosche with Dalaras - it was just interesting to hear someone else to sing them. And these are beautiful songs, so not surprising they translated them in Hebrew. I liked how he sings them, could be someone finds it irritating (like some Spanish people don't like Dalaras singing latin songs), so hopefully there is no offense to Dalaras purists. :D

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Michael, you sound like an expert - may I ask what you mean by "kitch" and which songs with the Israeli Orchestra you consider that and why?

"Expert"?? :lol: (In the meantime I only think that my knowledge of important parts of the Greek music is indeed better than that of some Dalaras listeners who obviously do not know much more than his music and the songs of a few other singers who are popular at he moment. :D )

Concerning the expression "kitch" I do not know how much it is in use in English and Greek. It exists in both languages but perhaps it is not so often used as in German. Perhaps the expression can be explained as follows: An art work (it can be a song, a picture, a movie, a novel etc.) that describes or expresses feelings in a superficially aesthetic but shallow and banal way.

And to my mind exactly this description fits to the concert with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. I will try to illustrate it with three examples:

- "Sthn arapia": The arrangement of the song is very beautiful from the moment on when the bouzouki starts, but the symphonic introduction before is simply terrible - so terrible that it destroys my mood to hear the "rest" of the song. What has this pseudo-aesthetic symphonic arrangement to do with rebetiko-songs?

- "Ta prota logia": We know from this CD that this song substantially is not by Kougioumtzis but "an old Hebrew prayer". O.k. - so someone could say that we should not automatically expect the sound as we know it from the original recording with Dalaras (= the song as it was modified by Kougioumtzis). But what do we hear instead of this? For me this arrangement/instrumentation (and as a consequence unfortunately the song as a whole) sounds simply like music for a Hollywood-movie. Completely shallow.

- "Mi mou thimonis": After the (quite good) introduction, when Dalaras starts to sing you can hear the harp (later on too); then Dalaras' voice is accompanied by a "sound-carpet" of the strings. All this creates a pseudo-elegant sound which (for me) has nothing to do with the original atmosphere of the song. The song is degraded to a folcloristic piece of music, mixed with elements who obviously shall give it a sufficient reason to be played in a concert hall with a classical orchestra.

Similar things can be said of the other songs too. - All this may not refer directly to Dalaras' voice (which I find quite beautiful on this CD). But there is the danger that in combination with such arrangements his voice could be also regarded as "Kitsch" (= as too honeysweet in a shallow way). :D

In the meantime various postings in this topic (unfortunately most of them in Greek) give a perfect answer to the question "Who are the Dalaras fans?", or better: "Who is a certain group of these fans?": As far as I know, "fan" is the short form of fanatic, and so I would characterize various members according to what they write and how they write. :D

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"Mi mou thimonis": After the (quite good) introduction, when Dalaras starts to sing you can hear the harp (later on too); then Dalaras' voice is accompanied by a "sound-carpet" of the strings. All this creates a pseudo-elegant sound which (for me) has nothing to do with the original atmosphere of the song. The song is degraded to a folcloristic piece of music, mixed with elements who obviously shall give it a sufficient reason to be played in a concert hall with a classical orchestra.

Michael, I welcome your interest, knowledge and love in greek music. The fact that our music is quite well known by non-greek people is honorable, indeed. I would like to kindly disagree with you, as far as the "Mi mou thymoneis matia mou" point of view posted earlier today. I agree, of course that the original version of the song is a unique performance, full of emotions, insuperable even for Dalaras himself. I would like to say though, that I listen to the "Israeli" version of the song quite often and it is one of my favourite live performances. Your notes on song's orchestration are probably right, I am not a musician, I am just a listener. I just feel like his performance is so beautiful and strong in this song that can cover up any imperfection may exists in orchestration.

------------------------------

As far as this topic itself is concerned, I personally believe that there is no such thing as Dalaras fans. I believe there are only Dalaras friends. And friends may disagree, complain or even grumple, but should always love and support as well :D

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Your notes on song's orchestration are probably right, I am not a musician, I am just a listener

The same applies to me. :D So I think it is not a matter of "right" or "wrong" but "only" (?) of different tastes and different approaches to music.

I just feel like his performance is so beautiful and strong in this song that can cover up any imperfection may exists in orchestration.

I understand what you mean but that's exactly what I am not able (and/or willing?) to do concerning this record: to "overhear" what disturbs me in the field of orchestration (though Dalaras' performance is admittedly good).

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Θα απαντούσα με αγένεια, αλλά ακούω την φωνή της λογικής. Θα μπορούσα να πω πολλά αλλά σέβομαι την σελίδα που με φιλοξενεί. Διάλογος γίνεται μεταξύ ανθρώπων που ξέρουν να ακούν και τον άλλο. Κι όχι με ανθρώπους που αποδοκιμάζουν και βγάζουν συμπεράσματα άκοπα, επειδή οι άλλοι έχουν αντίθετη άποψη. Μια συμβουλή, στον φίλο(θέλω να πιστεύω) Michael: ακούστε τον Νταλάρα λιγότερο ΕΓΚΕΦΑΛΙΚΑ. Πιστέψτε με, Michael,θα σας κάνει πολύ καλό. Μην αναλύετε τόσο πολύ. Μην αναλώνεστε τόσο πολύ. Από μία <<φανατική>>,όπως χαρακτηρίσατε εμένα κι άλλους φίλους. Δεν θα απαντούσα προσωπικά αλλά προκλήθηκα, ουκ ολίγες φορές. Είπαμε πως δεν γράφουμε στα αγγλικά ,αλλά γνωρίζουμε αγγλικά πολύ καλά. Και καταλαβαίνουμε σε ποιους αναφέρεστε. Θα προσπαθώ διαρκώς να σας καταλάβω. Ευελπιστώ. Κι επειδή αυτό το topic έχει καταλήξει να είναι ανούσιο-τουλάχιστον όσον αφορά εμένα- σταματώ εδώ. Με τους πιο φιλικούς χαιρετισμούς σε όλους.Και με περισσή ευγένεια. Πιστέψτε με...

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Είπαμε πως δεν γράφουμε στα αγγλικά ,αλλά γνωρίζουμε αγγλικά πολύ καλά. Και καταλαβαίνουμε σε ποιους αναφέρεστε.

Μα δεν αμφέβαλα ότι οι περισσότεροι από σας γνωρίζουν και καταλαβαίνουν αγγλικά. Γράφοντας σε αυτή την γλώσσα (και όχι στην ελληνική) δεν ήθελα να κρύψω κάτι από τα ελληνικά μέλη αλλά απλώς να παραμείνω στην γλώσσα η οποία είναι η "κυρίαρχη" σε αυτό το topic (πολύ περισσότερο επειδή αυτό ξεκίνησε στα αγγλικά και διαμορφώθηκε μια συζήτηση στην οποία συμμετέχουν αρκετά άτομα που δεν ξέρουν (πολλά) ελληνικά).

Διαπιστώνω λοιπόν ότι σε μερικές άλλες παραξενιές σου προστίθεται και μια υπερβολική καχυποψία σχετικά με ό,τι συμβαίνει γύρω σου. Όλα σού φαίνονται να είναι μια εχθρική πράξη είτε απέναντι στο είδωλό σου είτε απέναντι σε σένα την ίδια.

Πάντως ας το ξεκαθαρίσω στα ελληνικά: Πολύ σωστά κατάλαβες ότι στους φανατικούς συγκαταλέγω και εσένα ...

Κατά τα άλλα δεν σχολιάζω το κείμενό σου. Βαριέμαι. Σου λέω απλά: Τέτοια υποστήριξη (ως φίλη, "fan", οτιδήποτε ...) σαν εσένα δεν αξίζει στον Νταλάρα. Η κατάσταση μού θυμίζει λίγο το ποδόσφαιρο: Έτσι όπως οι χούλιγκανς με τη συμπεριφορά τους κάνουν κακό στο κύρος της ομάδας τους (χωρίς να φταίει η ίδια) έτσι και κάποιοι "φίλοι" του Νταλάρα προκαλούν ζημιά στη φήμη του με όσα λένε και με το πώς συμπεριφέρονται. Και με κόπο πια προσπαθώ να πείσω τον εαυτό μου ότι μερικοί φανατικοί δεν αντιπροσωπεύουν το σύνολο των ακροατών του Νταλάρα και πολύ λιγότερο αυτόν τον ίδιο ...

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Επειδή οι αρχές, οι τρόποι και η αξιοπρέπειά μου δεν μου επιτρέπουν να απαντήσω όπως -ίσως- να σου άξιζε...Επειδή για ένα από τα στοιχεία που περηφανεύομαι, είναι η καλή φήμη που έχω αποκτήσει ... Επειδή δεν έχω κάνει ΠΟΤΕ κακό ούτε στον Νταλάρα και στη φήμη του αλλά και σε κανέναν άνθρωπο...Επειδή δεν ανέχομαι από ΚΑΝΕΝΑΝ χαρακτηρισμούς απαξιωτικούς, όπως <<χούλιγκαν>>,<<φανατική>>...Επειδή δεν ανέχομαι να μου προσάπτουν παραξενιές -που δεν έχω... Επειδή υπερασπίζομαι το δικαίωμα της ελευθερίας της έκφρασης αλλά όχι και τη μονομέρεια... Επειδή έχω μάθει να ακούω με προσοχή τον άλλον...Επειδή έχω μάθει στη ζωή μου-λόγω δουλειάς- να έχω καρτερικότητα και ανοχή...Επειδή δεν ανέχομαι να αποκαλούμαι εγώ ως φανατική και κάποιοι άλλοι να θεωρούν εαυτούς αντικειμενικούς(τι σχετικό)...Επειδή-ξαναλέω- σέβομαι απεριόριστα την σελίδα που μας φιλοξενεί καθώς και τον καλλιτέχνη στον οποίο είναι αφιερωμένη αυτή...Επειδή η αξιοπρέπειά μου έχει λαβωθεί τόσο πολύ... Επειδή δεν θέλω να περάσουμε σε μία αντιπαράθεση χωρίς τέλος... Σταματώ εδώ!!

Θεωρούσα ότι κάτι προσέφερα σε αυτή τη σελίδα,της οποίας μπορεί να μην ήμουν μέλος από την πρώτη στιγμή αλλά ήμουν παρατηρήτρια(ίσως θα έπρεπε να συνεχίσω έτσι) από την πρώτη στιγμή. Θεωρούσα πως μπορεί να ενώσει τους φίλους του Νταλάρα. Ίσως έκανα λάθος... Θα ήθελα να παρακαλέσω όλους να μην συνεχιστεί αυτή η αντιπαράθεση. Αναλαμβάνω το μερίδιο ευθύνης που μου αναλογεί.Ζητώ συγγνώμη από τα μέλη αν υπήρξαν από μέρους μου ρινίσματα εμπάθειας ή χάσιμο του μέτρου κι αν προκάλεσα. Η συναισθηματική μου φόρτιση και το μέτρο δεν μου επιτρέπει να συνεχίσω. Ούτε να πάρω βιαστικές αποφάσεις. Σας παρακαλώ όλους για χαμήλωμα των τόνων. Όχι άλλο λάδι στη φωτιά. Λυπάμαι ειλικρινά και ξαναζητώ ταπεινά συγγνώμη. :D:D:D

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- "Sthn arapia": The arrangement of the song is very beautiful from the moment on when the bouzouki starts, but the symphonic introduction before is simply terrible - so terrible that it destroys my mood to hear the "rest" of the song. What has this pseudo-aesthetic symphonic arrangement to do with rebetiko-songs?

Hey Michael

goood analogy hear

and I agree with everything you wrote on this

But if I had to add a reply to your question

maybe the Conductor or whomever wrote out the arrangements from the Orchestra decided they needed to add the String Section (Violins, Cellos & Winds) to do a liitle Solo (or Taximi) for us before the Intro of the song. Like giving us a taste of whats to come next

At least that much is quite Evident. Why though?

I'm thinking because they are the Phil-Harmonic Orchestra right and it was with them Dalaras did a Colloboration with. So if you don't hear them playing somewhere in the songs or on every song for that matter,

it would be like they would have no part to play. Thus we (the Audience) would only hear the Bouzoukia play and start from right where the Intro ( Eisayoyi ) comes in.

I don't know but just a hunce. And the violins do not even come close to giving it a Rebetiko feel. That much is certain. The song is best known right where the Bouxouki comes in. A run up from the Niavent Mode.

Still though you're right about the strings from the Israeli Harmonic Orchestra it doesn't sound right and is quite boring {Mehri Na'rhisoun Ta Bouzoukia}

:D

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Ας λήξει εδώ παιδιά αυτή η αντιπαράθεση. Οι χαρακτηρισμοί που ανέφερες νωρίτερα Michael, από την πολύ σύντομη θητεία μου σε αυτή την παρέα, δε ν ευσταθούν σε καμία περίπτωση, όχι για τους συγκεκριμένους ανθρώπους τουλάχιστον. Σταματώ κι εγώ εδώ και δε θα κάνω κάποια άλλη αναφορά. Ευχαριστώ.

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Hi, Michael

Thanks for your explanation - it is really appreciated.

I found this definition of the term: kitsch is said to be a gesture imitative of the superficial appearances of art. It is often said that kitsch relies on merely repeating convention and formula, lacking the sense of creativity and originality displayed in genuine art.

All you said about the orchestra might be true - for a musician. Most of the audience, however, are just people who listen to the whole piece - what is (understandably) irritating for a musician, we, ignorant "fans" (I guess this term originated from "fanatics" but came to be used in much general sense closer to "friends") just filter out as not that important. The Dalaras part was certainly genuine. Who knows, maybe he had the same feeling of dissatisfaction (he can't have his own orchestra always with him), but he won in the end: he made at least his part genuine and beautiful. Although people like myself are ignorant in music as profession, we still have ears.

I completely understand the reasons why you found this performance irritating, but Dalaras did not sound like kitsch at all (lacking creativity - see above), even if his performance could have been better with another orchestra. It was not his fault. He was doing his best to connect to the audience in which he succeeded (listen to the applause).

It is always very ambiguous turf: art for public and for elite. How to judge? Especially, when this kind of music is by definition intended for public. The main thing that Dalaras is never a cheap imitation of someone else.

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OK, I listened again to the Israeli Orchestra - I tried hard, but could not find absolutely nothing offensive in that orchestra. I actually like it's intepretation very much. It means that I am blissfully ignorant in music which is the more reason for me to enjoy it! Happy listening to everyone who is still able to do it!

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- "Sthn arapia": The arrangement of the song is very beautiful from the moment on when the bouzouki starts, but the symphonic introduction before is simply terrible - so terrible that it destroys my mood to hear the "rest" of the song. What has this pseudo-aesthetic symphonic arrangement to do with rebetiko-songs?  

maybe the Conductor or whomever wrote out the arrangements from the Orchestra decided they needed to add the String Section (Violins, Cellos & Winds) to do a liitle Solo (or Taximi) for us before the Intro of the song. Like giving us a taste of whats to come next

At least that much is quite Evident. Why though?

I'm thinking because they are the Phil-Harmonic Orchestra right and it was with them Dalaras did a Colloboration with. So if you don't hear them playing somewhere in the songs or on every song for that matter,

it would be like they would have no part to play. Thus we (the Audience) would only hear the Bouzoukia play and start from right where the Intro ( Eisayoyi ) comes in.

Christo, I completely share your impression: There was a collaboration of Dalaras with a symphonic orchestra and so they needed to combine in a certain way the world of classical music and the world of greek rebetiko music. (Above I already wrote something similar about the arrangement of the song "Mi mou thimoneis matia mou".)

My problem is that I do not see any artistic value in such mixes. All this may have increased Dalaras' popularity in Israel, many of his fans (friends, admirers, whatever) will see it as one more proof of Dalaras' versatility ("he collaborates even with a worldwide known philharmonic orchestra") and may be that it was a possibility to bring near greek music in general to a part of Israel's audience (I assume to those who otherwise hear classical music). - Fine. But all this has nothing to do with artistic criteria. It is a type of music-marketing, of "show".

I found this definition of the term: kitsch is said to be a gesture imitative of the superficial appearances of art. It is often said that kitsch relies on merely repeating convention and formula, lacking the sense of creativity and originality displayed in genuine art.

Vitaly, thank you. I am happy to see that my spontaneous description of "Kitsch" did not differ fundamentally from the definition that you found. :)

I completely understand the reasons why you found this performance irritating, but Dalaras did not sound like kitsch at all (lacking creativity - see above), even if his performance could have been better with another orchestra. It was not his fault. He was doing his best to connect to the audience in which he succeeded (listen to the applause).

It is always very ambiguous turf: art for public and for elite. How to judge? Especially, when this kind of music is by definition intended for public. The main thing that Dalaras is never a cheap imitation of someone else.

I agree. Only that it was Dalaras' own choice to collaborate with a symphonic orchestra (as for example at another time he also did with an orchestra of Russian balalaikas!) and to accept these arrangements. That the concert was appreciated by the audience is something that I do not deny. But it does not automatically mean that I like the performance too. :)

It is always very ambiguous turf: art for public and for elite. How to judge? Especially, when this kind of music is by definition intended for public.

That's an interesting point: Because to my mind in this case exactly the opposite happened: Music that was originally intended for "public" (however we will define it) was converted into music for an "elite", namely for an audience that usually listens to a symphonic orchestra, to classical music. So because of being to "rough" in its original version, this music obviously had to be "refined" by a symphonic introduction or by the intense accompaniment of strings etc.etc. Of course it was the only way to "justify" the presence of a symphonic orchestra (as Christo pointed out in his above posting). But from an artistic point of view what was it good for? You can also play for example Beethoven's 9th Symphony or Mozart's "Little Night Music" by combining the authentic symphonic orchestra (respectively chamber orchestra) with bouzoukis. But what's the artistic value of such experiments?

OK, I listened again to the Israeli Orchestra - I tried hard, but could not find absolutely nothing offensive in that orchestra. I actually like it's intepretation very much.  It means that I am blissfully ignorant in music which is the more reason for me to enjoy it! Happy listening to everyone who is still able to do it!

:lol: That's the same way I think and feel when I enjoy for example the listening to a song of Antzela Dimitriou, Anna Vissi, Tolis Voskopoulos etc. etc. Only that in these cases it are the Dalaras fans/friends/admirers who regard me (= my type of listeners) as blissfully ignorant. :) So finally it's all a matter of taste.

And something concerning the word "fan":

[...] we, ignorant "fans" (I guess this term originated from "fanatics" but came to be used in much general sense closer to "friends") just filter out as not that important.

It is time to make clear that for me the word "fan" is not (and was never) automatically something negative. For example I also would regard myself as a fan of (certain parts of) Greek music. :) Of course I also do not think that a fan is necessarily "ignorant". It were always some "friends" ("admirers" whatever) of Dalaras here in the Forum who obviously regard the word "fan" as negative or even insulting and do not want to be characterized as "fans". O.k. This should be respected. (Though I do not think that it makes such a big difference when I call myself "friend" or even "admirer" of Dalaras.)

So I also agree with you, Vitaly, that it seems that by the time the word "fan" has approached more the term "friend" (or "admirer" or whatever) and has lost its strong connection with its origin "fanatic". Therefore we should not say that "fan" means (automatically) "fanatic". Not at all! There are only some members here in the Forum which remind me (with some of their comments and reactions to other people's opinions) of the origin (and original meaning?) of the expression "fan". :)

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Hi, Michael

I am not arguing for the sake of it: for me this discussion is really interesting and educational. This time I am confused with the term "artistic value". What's wrong with the "show" (as opposed to "showing off")? He sings to express himself + please the audience: I beleave he thinks "I like it, so will they like it, too?". Without this constant exchange there would be no music.

That's artistic value.

If he starts (or started) thinking "is it different enough from others?", "is it innovative enough?", it will all become artificial or packaged for sale.

As for the rembetika music which is not supposed to be combined with other than bouzouki - is it so necessary to classify music in this way: belongs to rembetika, classical, anatolian, western, demotiko and must be kept within the original limits? I personally is unable to find my way in a CD store because of this classification. Has not folk music been cited frequently by classical composers in their work? Is a rembetika composer confined to keep to strict rules? Stin Arapia in particular (I think) is more romantic than typical rembetika songs, and well suited for being included in this type of program like The Israeli Orchestra. To mine unsophisticated ears that short orchestra introduction conveys feeling of misterious and romantic anticipation.

Discussing "Holliwood sentimentality" would be too distructing (arguably, that means "false sentiments", "fake pathos"), but if you take Greek popular music, it's sooo sentimental (genuinly) - the first Greek words stuck in my memory from the songs are "klaeo" and "dakri" :) .

Now back to language confusion: I meant by elite certainly not people who listen to classical music (Oh boy, where our civilization is heading?), but professional musicians and professional critics whose ears are deafened by too much technicalities. They are very ready to catch a false note, crack in the voice, etc. , and disregard feeling, emotion, human connection which (in my humble opinion) is the main component of artistic value. Artists who have it combined with high professional level are comparatively rare.

I remember a while ago I was ordering CDs from a Canadian Web store where it was possible to read buyers' comments and responses to the comments while selecting a CD. In response to various (many times negative) comments about Dalaras' disks one guy always posted exactly the same text (approximately, as I remeber) "Dalaras is one of greatest singers of all times. We are lucky to happen to live at the same time with him." As funny, as it sounds (the guy was very much derided for that), such artists are really very rare (no fanaticism, just fact, and by the way, there are some songs I don't like).

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Sorry, but I have been too busy these past days ...

I am very glad however to see that so many members are participating. After all, the real purpose of this topic was to bring the members of this forum together, in particular the Greek members with the international (non-Greek speaking) members of this forum, as there has not really been a thread in English for a very very long time (I had to find a subject for discussion that might attract a lot of members).. I think it was the only topic in English when I started it, and I was seriously asking myself what I was doing here in this Greek forum where everything else is in Greek. Why should I care?

As everyone can see, I have deleted the posts at the beginning of the thread as I wanted to leave the forum permanently, because I saw that no members wanted to participate (even though there were a lot of viewings). I came back to continue, but only this thread, out of respect for a certain member :) . This member was not himself aware, until now, that I did not intend to remain in the forum once I think that the time is right to leave it.

I must say that I used to listen to Dalaras a lot, bought lots of his CD's, and thought that his voice was the greatest voice of all the singers I knew, even though I did listen to lots of other singers too. But since the forum threads became more and more written exclusively in Greek, I had more and more turned towards discovering other singers like Gilbert Becaud, Nat King Cole, Bee Gees etc., and spending more time (and money :) ) on them, as there was nothing I could learn about Dalaras in this forum or other forums (I did not manage to learn Greek because it is too difficult for me - some persons simply do not have the ability to learn foreign languages).

That was when I started to compare the voices, and I was struck by the voice of Dalaras (as I said, not when he was in his 20's and 30's, but later), and there is no need to come back on that. It is only my own opinion, as well as my opinion about his performance, based on my own experience. It is an opinon, not a judgement, neither a blame.

About my view of his performance (and I chose such a word just to trigger some reaction from the forum members :music: ), I think that Dalaras really gave a passive performance (contrary to what the members described as his performances in Greece, and I don't doubt that at all). I was disappointed because I wanted him to do well in a foreign country, first to get more people interested in Greek music, and second to increase his popularity so that his CD's can get sold in foreign countries. ;) To me, Greek music is music of the heart (that says how I feel about it), and I wish more people could know it to appreciate it. :)

That' s all I have to say, and I apologize to talk so much about myself, but I think I should make it clear to the members that this thread had not been started to create arguments within the forum, but rather to unite it. And I do hope that the members will continue to participate in a spirit of friendship, and to discuss their opinions about Dalaras and their feelings about what it means to be a Dalaras fan ... whatever that term may mean. :)

Good luck to all of you! :)

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