Geske

Προσφυγάκι _____||_____ Little refugee

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Προσφυγάκι _____||_____ Little refugee

Μουσική: Χρήστος Γκάρτζος_____||_____ Music: Christos Gartzos

Στίχοι: Λάκης Τεάζης_____||_____ Lyrics: Lakis Teazis

Στου βοριά τα ματοκλάδια μού 'στρωσες να κοιμηθώ_____||_____ Under the north wind's eyelashes you bedded me down to sleep,

με τις πέτρες μαξιλάρια και σεντόνι τον καημό_____||_____ with the stones for pillows and grief for my bedsheet.

στα θαλασσινά σου μάτια σαν καράβι τσάκισα_____||_____ In your ocean eyes like a ship I went to pieces,

οι λαβωματιές κεντήσαν τ' άσπρα μου πουκάμισα_____||_____ the wounds made embroideries on my white shirts.

Προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου με κατάντησες τρελή_____||_____ You crazy girl, you've got me down, a refugee turned out of your heart,

και χτυπώ τον ταμπουρά μου να σου πάρω ένα φιλί_____||_____ and I am striking my tambouras to obtain a kiss from you.

Ήσουνα το γλαροπούλι πάνω απ' τα Εφτάνησα_____||_____ You were the seagull, the bird above the Ionian islands,

σε χτυπούσαν οι βοριάδες κι όλους τους αφάνισα_____||_____ the North winds were beating you and I laid them low,

μα εσύ κεχριμπαρένια την καρδούλα μου δε θες_____||_____ but you, amber beauty, you don't want my poor little heart,

και με το Θεό τα βάζω που δε σ' έμαθε να κλαις_____||_____ and I'm having it out with God for not teaching you how to cry.

Προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου με κατάντησες τρελή_____||_____ You crazy girl, you've got me down, a refugee turned out of your heart,

και χτυπώ τον ταμπουρά μου να σου πάρω ένα φιλί_____||_____ and I am striking my tambouras to obtain a kiss from you.

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One of the songs from which I think that they show what a great composer Christos Gartzos is (or was). And an example for the extremely romantic-metaphorical way of writing that has often characterized the lyrics of Lakis Teazis.

In the meantime both - composer and lyrics-writer - are no longer active (as far as I know) and more or less forgotten among today's listeners of greek music.

Προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου με κατάντησες τρελή_____||_____ Little refugee my dear, you got me down, you crazy girl,

και χτυπώ τον ταμπουρά μου να σου πάρω ένα φιλί_____||_____ and I keep beating my tambourine to get a kiss off you.

I have no clear idea what this phrase "προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου" could mean, but I am sure that it cannot have the meaning of your english translation, Geske. If it were "Little refugee my dear" there would be necessary a vocativ case (κλητική) and not a genitive. Moreover it would have to be "καρδιά μου" and not "καρδιά σου" ("προσφυγάκι, καρδιά μου, με κατάντησες τρελή ...").

For me "της καρδιάς μου" would be more plausible than "της καρδιάς σου" - in the sense of: "you are a little refugee (= you flee) from my heart" (something like that). But listening to the song, indeed it seems to be quite sure that Dalaras sings "σου".

I have only one vague idea about what the expression "προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου" could mean. But I am not very convinced of it; so I will wait to see what you, Geske, or others think about its possible meaning.

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May I suggest 2 things?

1. The singer is a woman (it is not unusual: both Dalaras and Arvanitaki performed the same song - Κοκκινο φουστανι. Με καταντισες τρελη means "you drove me mad" (Stavropoulos dict.). I believe nowhere else the text suggests the gender.

2. Προσφυγακι της καρδιας σου: you exiled me from your heart, I am banished from your heart.

I also think κεχπιμπαρενια belongs to καρδουλα?.

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About the drum: In my dictionary (smallish, unfortunately) ο ταμπουρας is translated as "flute". drum is το ταμπουρλο. :) I thought there might be a game or something like a fun ritual for young people in a village to solicit a kiss, and a drum is involved?

This is an awsome song - one of those you think 100 years old and surprised to see real names in the credits.

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May I suggest 2 things?

1. The singer is a woman (it is not unusual: both Dalaras and Arvanitaki performed the same song - Κοκκινο φουστανι. Με καταντισες τρελη means "you drove me mad" (Stavropoulos dict.). I believe nowhere else the text suggests the gender.

From the grammatical point of view you are right: It could also mean: "you [= man] drove me [= a woman] mad". For a moment I thought of this possibility too, but to my mind it would not be logical to let this sing a man. Don't forget that this song was obviously written directly for Dalaras. (= It is not a new perfomance of an older song: in this case it indeed happens that a man sings a "female" song and vice versa.)

2. Προσφυγακι της καρδιας σου: you exiled me from your heart, I am banished from your heart.

:( Ah, that's a very good idea: So the "προσφυγάκι" would be the singer himself (= the man, in my assumption) who was exiled from the heart of the other person. Yes, very plausible, I think.

I also think κεχπιμπαρενια belongs to καρδουλα?.

Again, from the grammatical point of view it would be possible ("δεν θες την καρδούλα μου [να είναι] κεχριμπαρένια"). But for me it makes more sense in the way that Geske interpreted it: "κεχριμπαρένια" as a vocative case, as the way in which the singer characterizes and calls the woman. (And in this case it would be clear that the gender of the other person would have to be female, because if it were a man the vocative would have to be "κεχριμπαρένιε").

About the drum: In my dictionary  (smallish, unfortunately) ο ταμπουρας is translated as "flute". drum is το ταμπουρλο. :mad: I thought there might be a game or something like a fun ritual for young people in a village to solicit a kiss, and a drum is involved?

If you mean the dictionary by Stavropoulos, I think it is not sο smallish (at least not my edition). :mad: And this dictionary indeed says "flute"! I must admit that I never thought about what this instrument is really like and as Geske I always assumed that it will be something like a drum. :mad: Obviously it is not, but "flute" also seems to be wrong:

Babiniotis describes it in his dictionary as follows:

ο ταμπουράς: "έγχορδο λαϊκό μουσικό όργανο με βαθύ ηχείο σε σχήμα αχλαδιού, πολύ μακρύ βραχίονα και δύο, τρία ή τέσσερα ζεύγη χορδών" !!!

Something similar says the online dictionary "Τριανταφυλλίδης":

ο ταμπουράς: "γενική ονομασία για μια σειρά από λαϊκά όργανα της οικογένειας του λαγούτου"

So obviously it is an instrument with strings!!

:)

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From the book :

ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ ΛΑΙΚΑ ΜΟΥΣΙΚΑ ΟΡΓΑΝΑ - Greek Folk Musical Instruments

2000 Athens Ministry of Culture Directorate of Culture

The Fivos Anoyakis Collection 95 p.

ISBN 960-214-562-5

ΤΑΜΠΟΥΡΑΣ - TAMBOURAS

Η ονομασία "ταμπουράς" χρησιμοποιείται για μία σειρά από νυκτά όργανα της οικογενείας του λαγούτου, ανεξάρτητα από τις διαστάσεις, τον αριθμό των χορδών και το κούφδισμά τους.

Τα αρχέτυπα των οργάνων αυτών, γνωστά ίδη από τη 2η π.Χ. χιλιετία (Μεσοποταμία, Αίγυπτος), έχουν μικρό ηχείο, μακρύ χέρι και παίζονται με πλήκτρο (πένα) ή με δάχτυλα.

Στην αρχαία Ελλάδα ο τύπος αυτός είναι γνωστός ως "τρίχορδο" ή "πανδούρα", στο Βυζάντιο ως "θαμπούρα" (το όργανο του Διγενή Ακρίτα) και στη νεότερη Ελλάδα ως "ταμπουράς, μπουζούκι, μπαγλαμάς, σάζι. μπουλγαρί", κ. ά.

Είναι το κύριο μουσικό όργανο στην παράδοση του ρεμπέτικου, της αστικής λαίκης μουσικής που αναπτύσσεται στα λιμάνια του Αιγαίου από τα τέλη του 19ου αι. μέχρι τη δεκαετία του '50.

The term "tambouras" is used for a series of instruments of the lute family, regardless of their dimensions, number of strings and tuning.

The archetypes of these instruments date to the 2nd millennium B.C. (Mesopotamia, Egypt). They have a small sound box and long neck and are played with a plectrum (péna) or with the fingers.

In ancient Greece, this type of instrument was known as a "trichordhon" or "pandhoura", and in Byzantium as a "thamboura "(the instrument of Digenis Akritas, the Byzantine epic hero); in modern Greece it is the "tambouras, bouzouki, baglamas, sazi, boulgari," etc.

It is the chief instrument of the rebetiko urban musical tradition which developed in Aegean seaports between the end of the 19th century and the fifties of our era.

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So, it is a typo - lute, not flute.

Instrument with strings certainly fits better than flute. You can Χτιπω it: either on the body, or even on the strings if you are impatient or passionate :lol:

I am still curious about getting a kiss, not just attention, by banging on the lute.

P.S. Bandoura (a little twisted "tamboura"?) is a famous instrument of Ukrainian bards. A bandourist (usually a blind man) would wonder from village to village and entartain people with his ballads, not unlike Homeric style. They still function, mainly as a tourist attraction, in Kiev.

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:( Perfect information. Thank you, Annette. :)

Concerning:

Στην αρχαία Ελλάδα ο τύπος αυτός είναι γνωστός  ως "τρίχορδο" ή "πανδούρα", στο Βυζάντιο ως "θαμπούρα" (το όργανο του Διγενή Ακρίτα) και στη νεότερη Ελλάδα ως "ταμπουράς, μπουζούκι, μπαγλαμάς, σάζι. μπουλγαρί", κ. ά.

In ancient Greece, this type of instrument was known as a "trichordhon" or "pandhoura", and in Byzantium as a "thamboura "(the instrument of Digenis Akritas, the Byzantine epic hero); in modern Greece it is the "tambouras, bouzouki, baglamas, sazi, boulgari," etc.

So according to this source it seems that the word "ταμπουράς" does not come from the French word "tambour" as Babiniotis mentions as one - possible - etymological explanation. (He mentions that there are other opinions too.)

In any case it is funny that the Greek-English dictionary by Stavropoulos translates "ταμπουράς" as flute (see the above postings) which is obviosuly completely wrong. :lol:

__________________________

During a walk in the snow I also thought again about the following:

2. Προσφυγακι της καρδιας σου: you exiled me from your heart, I am banished from your heart.

and I realized that this seems to be indeed a perfect interpretation. Because so we have also a plausible explanation for the full sentence:

«Προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου με κατάντησες τρελή»

which means in a different word order:

"Τρελή, με κατάντησες προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου"

=

"You crazy girl, you degraded me to a (little) refugee from your heart" (in the above sense: you exiled me from your heart, I am banished from ζour heart)

:mad: (Marina, you should participate more often in explaining us lyrics. :mad: )

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I'll try my best. It's much fun - however, not fair to Geske: she does all the work, and we come fresh to criticize. On the other hand, she translated everything first. :)

I thought it's weird that Stavropoulos messed up so badly, but the comment from Annette explained that it might be a typo: just one letter.

The origin of tamboura might be from Turks (as other bouzouki types): see above comment about "bandoura". There was much Turkish influence in Ukraine (and Ukrainian girls in harems).

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It's much fun - however, not fair to Geske: she does all the work, and we come fresh to criticize. On the other hand, she translated everything first.  :)

In a certain way this is right. But on the other hand I dare to say that it is also pleasant for Geske to see that people are dealing with her translations and giving feedback. :(

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....however, not fair to Geske: she does all the work, and we come fresh to criticize.

on the contrary.

Three facts:

1. translating songs, for me, is a GAME , I do it for fun

2. like most games, it's nice when you have someone to play it with

3. just as one can't be one's own doctor or lawyer (exceptions confirm the rule), a translator can't be his/her own proofreader

Therefore, unless you go on coming in 'fresh, to criticize', I will have to go playing by myself in a corner and not being read by anyone. Also, what you do is just as much (or as little!) "work" as what I do.

Στο 'πα και στο ξαναλέω: the more you all comment, the better I like it.

Now, to the game.

1. Προσφυγάκι της καρδιας ΣΟΥ - the whole mix-up over this line is the result of my original mis-reading "μου" instead of "σου", seeing a man talking to his sweetheart, a refugee girl, "of his heart". So:

Προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου με κατάντησες τρελή_____||_____ You crazy girl, you've got me down, a refugee turned out of your heart,

I agree with Michael, τρελή is the vocative, and he's saying με κατάντησες προσφυγάκι, the same construction as (example from Ο Ζορικος, one of my most beloved Dalaras songs anywhere): "με κατάντησες και νταβατζή κι αλήτη"; the construction "καταντώ καποιον σε κάτι" translates accurately, but inelegantly, as "bring someone down to the level of something"

2. και χτυπώ τον ταμπουρά μου να σου πάρω ένα φιλί_____||_____ and I am striking my tambouras to obtain a kiss from you

Nice quiz question (too easy for Michael though): there is at least one other, quite well-known, Dalaras song featuring a tambouras. Which?

Merci beaucoup Annette for helping out. I had already resolved to go and get some reliable advice, next time in Athens, at that tiny and enchanting museum for folk instruments they have in Plaka - now I'll have to find another excuse...

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Nice quiz question (too easy for Michael though): there is at least one other, quite well-known, Dalaras song featuring a tambouras. Which?

Yes, I think I know which song you mean (I remembered the song immediately when I read here about the "ταμπουράς"). :rolleyes: But I will give others the possibility to answer.

So:

Προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου με κατάντησες τρελή_____||_____ You crazy girl, you've got me down, a refugee turned out of your heart,

Geeske, please can you give me a German translation of your english sentence? My English is not good enough to understand fully what this means (I refer to the phrase "a refugee turned out of your heart") but I have the impression that it could be something different from what I had in mind (after Marina enlighted me/us about the meaning of this part of the lyrics).

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Michael, the english phrase "to turn someone out" means "to force someone to leave". In a court order one uses "to evict", in normal speech one says "to turn out". If the phrase had been προσφυγάκι της Σμύρνης I would have written only "refugee from Smyrna", but "refugee from your heart" seemed not clear enough. I hope this explanation makes sense, my German isn't up to this - but you might give me your German version, I'd be able to tell you if it's the same interpretation or not.

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Thank you, Geeske. With this meaning (which I have never heard about :wow: ) I think it is o.k. In German we would say something like:

"ein aus deinem Herzen Vertriebener (bin ich durch dich geworden)". I assume this corresponds with your english expression.

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On second thought προσφηγακι appears to have rather dubious meaning: it can be an exile, but also someone applying for help, and being humiliated at that.

I would change now to the latter:

προσφηγακι της καρδια σου με καταντησες τρελη

You are crazy that you reduced me to a refugee begging for a place in your heart

How is that?

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Marina it's ok as far as it goes but I don't think that is the meaning. Her heart is the place he has been evicted from, i.e. instead of being a "refugee from Smyrna" he is a "refugee from your heart" = «προσφυγάκι της καρδιάς σου», because she no longer wants him, "you've brought me down to this" = «με κατάνδησες», and then he calls her names: "you crazy girl!" «τρελη!».

I have to add that "τρελή" in this context is not really the same as "crazy", I mean you don't call a woman "crazy" in English in this situation - in Greek usage (as someone explained to me 'a propos' the song Η σκέψη της τρελής on Από Καρδιάς) this specific τρελή is a woman who is both bewitchingly attractive and maddeningly unpredictable, and nOt faithful. If you find me an English word to cover that, I'd be glad to adopt it....!

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BTW, English is not native toung of either of us three, and German has (in my opinion) much more potential and tradition in this kind of poetry.

Why should we stick to English? I am sure Michael could suggest good German equivalents. :wow:

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Why should we stick to English?

I don't know about 'we', but I have one (and only one) very good reason to translate into English: it is everybody's second language. And since I am not trying to create an equivalent of the original text in a new language, but rather to write out subtitles to help as many people as possible cope with the original, English is the obvious choice.

I'm saying 'reason' but actually it feels like 'excuse' - since translating _into_ a language not your own is a capital sin for a (professional) translator.

I do, now and then, translate a song into Dutch or French (my German is nowhere near good enough to be target language), but I don't get a lot of readers even less response when I do.

Though I do like German very much, I don't think Greek translates into particularly well (usually) - though it does have the advantage of using cases, which the others have lost. Into Dutch it goes surprisingly well for prose and not at all for poetry. Greek into French is unpredictable and an all-or-nothing proposition, when it works it works very well, and when it doesn't it total disaster.

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English might be accepted as international language, but German is one of major languages, understood by many. Italian translations were posted on the forum.

I just happened to read old posts by Herbert and realized how much I miss Germany and Cologne, and hearing German language.

:wow:

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On second thought προσφηγακι appears to have rather dubious meaning: it can be an exile, but also someone applying for help, and being humiliated at that.

I would change now to the latter:

προσφηγακι της καρδια σου με καταντησες τρελη

You are crazy that you reduced me to a refugee begging for a place in your heart

How is that?

To my mind that's anyway the other side of the same coin; that means I do not see so much difference to your former interpretation ("you exiled me from your heart, I am banished from your heart"): He was exiled/banished and now his begging for a place in her heart (again).

I think, we were all a little bit confused by the word "πρόσφυγας" ("προσφυγάκι") which literally means "refugee". Perhaps "our" interpretation (= the one found by Marina and adopted by Geeske an me) is more plausible if we understand the word "πρόσφυγας" more in the sense of "εξόριστος" (= "banished / exiled (person)", in German: "Vertriebener / Verbannter").

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I can understand that you don't see the difference (maybe you are right, and the author thought the same way), but for me the difference is very clear and significant: it's two different points in time and travel.

Someone might be exiled contrary to his wishes and find comfortable life on the other side (with fiends or sympathisers - example: Solzhenitsyn).

A refugee, on the other hand, is a displaced person (due to war, natural disaster or economical reasons, no matter). His situation is that of a beggar - humiliating.

Of course one person can find himself in a situation when he is both.

Why I decided the second reading is better - because he is begging: for a kiss. In terms of the song it does not matter that much - but in life can be a big difference.

I repeat that the author might have intended the meaning refugee=exile.

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Marina, theoretically you are right about refugee=exile, but in fact the word is προσφυγάκι and nothing else.

The Greeks are extremely well aware of the difference between being exiled and becoming a refugee, in fact at the time this song was written I don't think there was anyone in Greece who didn't have both kinds in the family: refugees because of the 'micrasiatic catastrophe' and exiles (both out of the country, and to inhospitable isolated places inside it) because of the successive dictatorships.

So if he says 'refugee' he means 'refugee' (=turned out empty-handed out of the place he considered his home), and not 'exile', nor 'banished'.

Besides, it's a diminutive (πρόσφυγας > προσφυγάκι), a "poor dear little refugee". (I _do_ think that is one great drawback of the admirable English tongue: no diminutives!).

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:huh::huh: After your last comments (from both of you) I am confused. :rolleyes: It's too difficult for me to deal with such detailed aspects in English.

But never mind. I think have understood the essence of what the phrase with the "προσυφγάκι ..." means. :music:

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A little reply about the  "ταμπουράς". I was reading the translation (thank you Geeske and everyone else who contributed to it), you know, in one of those moments a song just hits you and you NEED to know more  :razz:  

 

Anyway, back to the musical instrument mentioned. It is indeed a lute, extensively used in Bulgaria, some parts of Macedonia/FYROM and the Pirin area. The tambura (BG: Тамбура) is somewhat similar to the bouzouki and saz, but with a more flat body, and according to records it is also much older. It sound is softer and in my opinion warmer and less sharp than that of the bouzouki. It is used a lot as a supporting instrument like a guitar, and in that form is responsible for the rhythm. But it's also played as a solo instrument, and I'll put an example here below

 

I know this is an old topic and all, but just in case some of you have come across the term every now and then and were still wondering  B)

 

EDIT: in light of the translation and the meaning 'lute' of course the oud played in the beginning of the song makes much more sense  :music:

 

 

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