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nikolas

Μεταφράσεις

7 posts in this topic

Γεια χαρά σε όλους

Θα ήθελα να συζητήσουμε για τις μεταφράσεις των στίχων των τραγουδιών και τον τρόπο που θα εμφανίζονται στη νέα σελίδα.

Πρώτα από όλα, υπάρχει ένα επιτυχημένο μοντέλο, όπως είναι αυτό της παράλληλης απεικόνισης των ελληνικών στίχων με τους μεταφρασμένους δίπλα.

Αυτό σίγουρα θα υιοθετηθεί. Από εκεί και πέρα, αν υπάρχουν κάποιες ιδέες για το τι πληροφορίες θέλουμε να εμφανίζονται και με ποιο τρόπο, ας τις αναφέρουμε σε αυτό το σημείο.

Βασικά, πρόσβαση στη μετάφραση θα έχουμε από κάθε τραγούδι χωριστά, όμως θα υπάρχουν και λίστες με όσα είναι μεταφρασμένα, με στόχο κάποια στιγμή, τουλάχιστον στα αγγλικά, να μη μας λείπει καμία μετάφραση.

Θα υπάρχουν και 1 ή 2 άτομα που θα διαχειρίζονται αυτό το τμήμα σταθερά, δηλαδή θα προσθέτουν νέες μεταφράσεις, ενώ θα μπορεί και ο καθένας να στείλει κάποια μετάφραση, η οποία όμως θα ελέγχεται για την αρτιότητά της από τα άτομα που θα οριστούν διαχειριστές των μεταφράσεων, που εξυπακούεται ότι θα γνωρίζουν τιες αντίστοιχες γλώσσες...:)

Λοιπόν;

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Nikolas says (more or less)

Translations for the new site

Hi everyone

Id like us to talk about the song translations and they way in which they will appear in the new site.

First of all, there is a successful model, in which the Greek and translated lyrics appear side by side. This will certainly be adopted. Beyond that, if there are any ideas about what information we want to appear, and in what way, lets talk about them here.

Basically there will be separate access to each translation, but there will also be lists showing what has been translated, with the objective that at some time, at least in English, no song will be left out.

There will be one or two people who will administer this section, that is, they will add the new translations. Whilst it will be possible for anyone to send a translation, these will however be checked for completeness by the people who will be appointed administrators of translations and who will, it is understood, have knowledge of the relevant languages.

So.?

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Νικόλα, όσο πιο πολύ την σκέφτομαι, τόσο πιο πολύ μου άρεσει η ιδέα για την οποία μου μίλησες πριν από λίγο καιρό:

το να υπάρχει απ'ευθίας σύνδεση - link δηλαδή -

από την σελίδα του τραγουδιού στο site (με στίχους, στοιχεία, μετάφραση, κλπ)

στο forum topic πού συζητιέται το συγκεκριμένο τραγούδι, πού θα χωράνε και συζητήσεις περί μετάφρασεις, και πληροφορίες για το τραγούδι, και λπ.

Για το format της σελίδας του τραγουδιού, αφού χρησιμοποιώ αρκετά το stixoi, μπορώ να πω ότι δεν έχω βρεί μέχρι στιγμής κάτι που θα ήθελα να είναι διαφορετικό.

υ.γ.

Προσωπικά, αν ήμουνα καταναλοτής μεταφράσεων, θα με βόλευε να υπάρχει και δυνατότητα να πας από το τραγούδι/μετάφραση που βλέπεις στο επόμενο το ίδιου δίσκου (χωρίς να πας πίσω σε λίστα), αλλά ξέρω ότι είναι παλιομοδιτική η εμμονή μου ν' ακούω δίσκους ολόκληρους, τώρα πια που πολλοί (οι περισσότεροι; ) ακούνε τραγούδια ένα ένα από τον υπολογιστή.

Summary:

I like the notion of having a direct link between the page in the site where the song/translation is, and the topic in the forum where it they get discussed.

If I were looking up translations of Dalaras song, I'd like a possibility to go on from each song directly to the next in the same record, without going back to a list, but that's probably old-fashioned.

As a fairly heavy user of the stixoi site, I find that format very good, haven't found something that I'd like to be different.

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Having previously given this subject almost no thought whatsoever, a couple of things now occur to me.

First, that the more the site (rather than the forum) can be used as a vehicle for discussion and participation the better. If for no other reason than it makes things easier to find, with list and link making hopefully being more automatic, and therefore less onerous, than they are now.

In fact, the current site already has substantial facilities for this, but for various reasons they have fallen into disuse. For example each album in the discography section has a section for discussion. As in: Ζωντανή ηχογράφηση στο Αττικόν (See top right hand button under the title).

Equally for each song with a 'site' translation there is a link. As in: Καλή τύχη.

The creation of the forum led to a distinction growing up between 'site' and 'forum' translations. This allowed more discussion about translations but this should still be possible under a 'site-based' system, with the administrators/moderators using the debate (if any) to modify the 'official' translation. All that would be needed is the addition of a 'discussion button' (similar to the existing ones for albums) for the songs and translations. This would take a bit of getting used to, but I imagine it wouldnt be too difficult for the site to show where the latest discussions were going on so that debates could be kept alive.

The mention of the excellent 'stixoi' site also reminds me that there are two presentational aspectsof its translations that I hope one day will be corrected and I hope won't be imported into the new Dalaras site. The first is that the list of 'new translations' shows the title twice in the language of translation. The other is that the translations themselves (which show the Greek and translated texts side by side) have lost their titles and details of the composers, lyricists and interpreters.

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Of course, I approve of any improvements, especially done by the others :D

And to be absorbed in a translation of a song would be a pleasure that you must pay for - not to get paid (exactly the right place is here). Debate and discussion makes it at least twice more desirable.

But...

There will be one or two people who will administer this section, that is, they will add the new translations.  Whilst it will be possible for anyone to send a translation, these will however be checked for completeness by the people who will be appointed administrators of translations and who will, it is understood, have knowledge of the relevant languages.

With all due respect to good intentions expressed above, my imagination can't stop envisioning all kinds of funny and less funny consequences which is no need to describe here in more details. There is no need to describe - because any one who is or used to be involved in this sometimes pleasant and many times boring and exhausting activity, knows...

And for the rest it would be enough to read one of the bloodiest Greek tragedy in order to figure out...

Still trying to explain the problem as briefly as possible: Is Giannis Ritsos or Odysseas Elythis still available for the job of "Administrator of translations" - to check for integrity? A less high authority simply would not do.

It does not mean there should be no debate - just the opposite. Debates and questions and friendly exchange of opinions.

It is possible in spite of.....

Listening to music is (or can be) a community experience, while making a translation is a lonely endevour such as a birth. You produced a child, and someone tells you that he must have a different hair color or nose shape... No, it can be changed - but such a delicate operation implies various rare conditions such as: you are receptive of other opinions, ready to acknowledge an error, and the suggesting party is willing to take a chance of acquiring an enemy... I am just saying that people are imperfect, their patience is limited, and the translators are even worse than average...

So although the Art of Translation can't have rules and regulations (even in our forum, where an agreement exists that translation must be as close as possible to the original, meaning phrase by phrase, and keeping lines in proper order, etc. - it is impossible to get to terms about HOW CLOSE), I will be the first to suggest introducing Rules and Regulations for the Translations section - not for the translation itself, but of course for the debate and discussion.

Rule 1: Always agree and never give in.

(Fine print: say "thank you" to the helpful suggestion and politely explain why your version is the only correct one. You can always do it within the borders of Art of Translation - because an art has no rules, etc, etc.).

Comment: Fine print is a joke, Rule 1 is not.

Thank you for your attention. I'll think about more rules. (If it won't work, at least a new Greek tragedy might come out of it). :D

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Just in case anyone else misunderstands Nikolas' intention:

The translation section of the forum will (continue to) be the place for free contributions, questions, discussion, etc.

In the translations section of the new site, only the administrator(s) will be able to add translations - either contributed by one person, or resulting from discussion in a forum topic. In the "stixoi" site the average quality of the translations is very poor, hence this measure.

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According to the science of semantics (interpreting meanings expressed by language or codes) - misunderstanding always takes at least two: the one who (mis)expressed and the one who (mis)understood.

(nothing important - just a chat. Thanks for the explanation :) )

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