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Geske

Θεσσαλονίκη

29 posts in this topic

If you want to hear him sing this: get out the Attikon live recording.

This... this is one of those songs, when Dalaras sings it, I have to listen, to pay attention - to hear!

Understanding is another matter and I know I ought to keep my paws off the poets, but what can I do??? Once I start listening... So, please, if you can, help out...

Well, here's how far I got:

Θεσσαλονίκη

Μουσική: Θάνος Μικρούτσικος

Στίχοι: Νίκος Καββαδίας

Ήταν εκείνη τη νυχτιά που φύσαγε ο Βαρδάρης,

το κύμα η πλώρη εκέρδιζε οργιά με την οργιά.

Σ' έστειλε ο πρώτος τα νερά να πας για να γραδάρεις,

μα εσύ θυμάσαι τη Σμαρώ και την Καλαμαριά.

Ξέχασες κείνο το σκοπό που λέγαν οι Χιλιάνοι

- ’γιε Νικόλα φύλαγε κι Αγιά Θαλασσινή-.

Τυφλό κορίτσι σ' οδηγάει, παιδί του Μοντιλιάνι,

που τ' αγαπούσε ο δόκιμος κι οι δυο Μαρμαρινοί.

Απάνω στο γιατάκι σου φίδι νωθρό κοιμάται

και φέρνει βόλτες ψάχνοντας τα ρούχα σου η μαϊμού.

Εκτός από τη μάνα σου κανείς δε σε θυμάται

σε τούτο το τρομακτικό ταξίδι του χαμού.

Κάτω από φώτα κόκκινα κοιμάται η Σαλονίκη.

Πριν δέκα χρόνια μεθυσμένη μου είπες "σ'αγαπώ".

Αύριο, σαν τότε, και χωρίς χρυσάφι στο μανίκι,

μάταια θα ψάχνεις το στρατί που πάει για το Ντεπό.

 

Thessaloniki

Music: Thanos Mikroutsikos

Lyrics: Nikos Kavvadias

It was on that night when the Vardari was blowing,

the prow put the wave behind it mile after mile.

The first one has sent you to travel the waters to (???),

but you, you remember Smaro and Kalamaria

They are lost in that darkness, the ones called the Thousand

- Saint Nikolas, give protection, and Our Lady of the Sea-.

The blind girl guides you, Modigliani's child,

whom they loved, the cadet and the two Marmarini

Over your bunk, the lazy snake is asleep

and the monkey is running in circles, rummaging in your clothes.

Except for your mother, noboby remembers you

on this journey, this terrible journey of destruction.

Under the red lights, Saloniki is asleep.

Ten years ago, I was drunk, you told me "I love you".

Tomorrow, like that day, and still with no gold upon your sleeve,

in vain you will walk the street that leads to the Depot.

 

There are some holes in there:

* the third line won't come together and make sense,

* the Χιλιάνοι is translated at a wild guess

* I can't quite figure out what Modigliani is doing there (I think the sculptor is meant, who made those veryvery thin elongated human figures),

* I don't know who the cadet is, and the Μαρμαρινοι sound like a pair of statues, but who and where??

On the other hand, I've found out that

* the Vardari is both a river and pretty fierce wind, and according to one source the red-light district is (or at least was) also called that in Saloniki.

* the Depot and Kalamaria are both Saloniki neighborhoods, and I expect that Smaro is, too.

* No gold upon your sleeve might mean the man she's addressing did not become an officer (Kavvadias sort of tried, but never made it, he remained a radio operator - and wrote poems, and one novel, which I'm reading now).

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Good choice, Geeske, I'm working on that song for ages.

I really hope we get the help here from our Greek members, not only for the lyrics, also the meaning of the song.

Micki

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I am no Greek, but I can nevertheless explain some things:

1.

Βαρδάρης: here of course the wind (as you write)

2.

The third line:

"Σ' έστειλε ο πρώτος τα νερά να πας για να γραδάρεις,"

- "ο πρώτος" is "the first officer" (or however they call it on ships), let's say the "boss" of the other person and

- "γραδάρω" is an expression of the language of the navy and means: to measure the density (or the temperature) or the depth of a liquid (here obviously the water of the sea) with a special instrument. I did not find the specific English term for it.

So perhaps you could say something like:

"The first officer [or a similar person] sent me to measure the depth of the sea." (Please use better English than mine :wow: .)

3.

"Σμαρώ" is no neighbourhood, but the name of a woman (short form of Σμαράγδα, if I am right).

4.

οι Χιλιάνοι = the people (here obviously: the sailors) from Chile [no connection with χίλιοι, -ες, -α = thousand  :wow: ]

5.

"Τυφλό κορίτσι σ' οδηγάει, παιδί του Μοντιλιάνι,"

Obviously he refers to a sculpture by Modigliani and

"σ οδηγάει" (= "leads you") here obviously means:

she leads you in your thoughts = you think of her

6.

"που τ' αγαπούσε ο δόκιμος κι οι δυο Μαρμαρινοί"

well, the cadet is simply ... a cadet (on the ship), and "Μαρμαρινοί" are two men (sailors obviously too) coming from the region of the Sea of Marmara (or however you call it in English / in German: Marmarameer), that is the sea "around" Istanbul (what a silly explanation, but I think you understand what I mean).

7.

"Πριν δέκα χρόνια μεθυσμένη μου είπες  'σ'αγαπώ' ".

Here things become a little bit queer. Obviously here the man speaks to the woman, telling her:

"Ten years ago, YOU were drunk [instead of: I was drunk] (and) you told me 'I love you' ". (To my mind "μεθυσμένη" and "είπες" must be the same person, e.g. a woman.)

8.

"No gold upon your sleeve might mean the man she's addressing did not become an officer."

Yes, either this - or: In the future ("αύριο") when you will not be any longer on the ships (and therefore no longer be officer). (But according to what you told us about Kavvadias' biography, your interpretation seem to fit better.)

(A first approach - some details in these lyrics are still not clear to me.)

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:wow: Ohhhh, something else I discovered just now, Geeske:

"Ξέχασες κείνο το σκοπό που λέγαν οι Χιλιάνοι"

does not mean

"They are lost in that darkness, ..."

but:

"You forgot that melody which sang the men (sailors) from Chile"

The next line ("- Saint Nikolas, give protection, and Our Lady of the Sea-") seems to be a part of the lyrics to this melody.

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I would like to add some points to Michael s contributions as for the translation by Geeske which contains appreciated efforts.

           -Modigliani has either never drawen the pupil of people in his pictures or drawen some dim pupils only.

           -Smaro is the girl whom Kavadias loved when he was living in Kalamaria.

           -The two menwho loved the girl of Modigliani from Marmara takes us to Mikra Asia so,theyatakiin the following quetrion comes from the Turkish word yatak(which means bed)also connected with Mikra Asia.Otherwise Kavadias could have used one of many Greek words instead of yataki.

            -The blind girl guides you a  journey through your self.

           Above interpretations taken from theTranslation Projectby my friend Kosta,Bogazici University Istanbul.His Project examines 12 poems of N.Kavadias.He(Kosta)has also translated Bammena Kokkina Malia (The Hair Dyed Red)by Kostas Mourselas into Turkish and,this novel became a best-seller in Turkey in last two years.

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Kenan!!! Thank you so much!!! and please thank your friend, too.

I feel such a fool, you know, trying to translate poetry when I haven't even learned to _read_ properly. The _stooopidest_ mistakes in that translation!!! I do apologize, first to the ghost of Kavvadias (who would probably send me packing with an obscene sailor's oath) and second to you all.

I've tried to put everyone's contribution into a new version of the translation + notes, and will post it shortly.

And pleae, could someone who knows Thessaloniki to tell us if it's (still) true that the red light district there is called Vardari, and whether the name has to with the river, or the wind, or both, or neither... please?

I picked up that bit in Kavvadias' novel, btw. It's called Βάρδια, meaning "the watch" - excellent dutch translation available (Hondewacht), there is also a French one (le Quart). And it struck me as totally extraordinary. His brothers are Jack London and Arthur Rimbaud.

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Geeske I just noticed this topic :razz:

Well, I want to give you some more information to the sailing direction for this song...

οργιά is not a mile. it is equal to 1.83 meters. The english word is fathom.

for γραδάρω I would use the word grade because this is what sailors mean.

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The fathom (Dutch vadem) is indeed a measure of 6 feet, but in English it is used almost exclusively for soundings, that is measuring depth, not for distance.

So, line 2: is the prow of the ship putting the wave behind, in water that is fathom upon fathom deep? something like that?

Because in that case, γραδάρω would surely be "to take a sounding", that is the term for a measurement of depth.

I'm enjoying this :razz:

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Geeske that is interesting indeed. Οργιά, as my life in Alexandroupolis -a place with wonderful fishes of its own- tells me, is usually used for depth too, especially with what fishmen call 'σουρτή', my dictionary says 'troll'. I know several of them and I have heard them saying that word very often while describing their 'σουρτές'.

Now for the poem. I don't have a final opinion yet whether it means that the ship was managing to go on (leaving behind the wave) or it was just that the prow managed to remain higher than the waves. My first impression was the second anyway.

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Nikolas, if you go down to the harbour in Portsmouth, you will certainly find fishermen who talk about their trolls (I think it's sometimes also written as 'trawls') the same way.

I'm wondering about the 'πρωτος': would it be the bosun, the first mate, or who? does anybody have a dictionnary that says exactly?

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Geeske, I think I found now the exact meaning in the dictionary of Babiniotis. It says that the special meaning of the term "o protos" ("ο πρώτος") in the language of the sailors is:

ο πρώτος καπετάνιος τού πλοίου

("the first captain of the ship" )

And Babiniotis gives the following example:

Φώναξέ μου τον πρώτο, γιατί έχω να του πω κάτι.

("Call the 'proto' (= 'the first [captain]' ) for me, as I have something to tell him." )

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now we have to find out which is the correct term in English, because 'first captain' does not exist, and 'first officer', 'first mate' and 'bosun' (also spelt 'boatswain') are all different people, and all might fit, and there probably are some more.

We'll find out!! (somehow).

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I am sometimes a little bit lazy in looking up the correct English terms in a dictionary because I think that others (with better English than mine) will know them immediately. But o.k. - here is the translation in the Greek-English dictionary of Stavropoulos:

καπετάνιος in the language of the sailors means:

master (mariner), (αξιωματικός του πλοίου) mate

The examples in the dictionary are:

δίπλωμα καπετάνιου  = master's certificate

δεύτερος / τρίτος καπετάνιος  = first / second mate

That was no mistake by writing: δεύτερος is translated with "first" and τρίτος is translated with "second" !!

So there is obviously a different way of expressing the same functions on a ship in Greek and in English.

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Well I'm not very much at home in these things (not at all really), but I *think* the hierarchy would be something like:

καπετάνιος  = EN ship's master = NL gezagsvoerder

δεύτερος καπετάνιος  = first mate = eerste stuurman

τρίτος καπετάνιος  = second mate = tweede stuurman

The reworked translation, btw., I will delay till I have Word knocked into shape on this new computer.

Michael, any idea on line 2? Does your big dictionnary have a good suggestion for εκρέρδιζε?

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Geeske, I fear I find nothing really convincing.

The translations of κερδίζω in the dictionary by Stavropoulos are:

1. earn, make

2. win, gain  (e.g. "κερδίζω έδαφος" = gain ground)

3. profit, make a profit on sthg., do well out of sthg., save

Perhaps it would be better to translate the word "κερδίζω" more in the sense of "κατακτώ": to conquer, to take, to gain [the wave(s)]?

As we have for both greek words (κερδίζω and κατακτώ) the translation "gain", perhaps this is the most useful one?

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Πριν δέκα χρόνια μεθυσμένη μου είπες "σ'αγαπώ".

I'm still confused about this one.

My feeling is that in the whole song, it's the woman speaking to the sailor, saying 'you remember, you forgot...'

and, in this line (I thought) also saying 'you told me "I love you"' - this makes sense with the last line, 'you will walk again...'

But μεθυσμένη must be a drunken woman, grammatically, I think? I mean, wouldn't it have to be μεθυσμένο to be a drunken sailor?

This is why I translated it as

Ten years ago, I was drunk, you told me "I love you".

I don't mind if it's wrong but I'd like to know how/why please  :D

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Dear Geeske

Kavvadias was an excluded poet in his life time.Therefore,even his lover said(or could have said)him "I love you" only when she was drunk.

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Geeske,

  I happen to live near Thessaloniki ,but even nearer Βαρδάρης,so I think I can enlighten the word for you:

First of all,Βαρδάρης is the Slavian name (Vardar) for the river Αξιός ,which comes in Greece from FYROM ,through the city of Skopje,and finally flows to the Aegean sea a few kms West of Salonika(or Thessaloniki if you like).In the valley that this river creates blows a very strong and very cold north wind,and the people in the valley call it Βαρδάρης.

Finally ,Βαρδάρης square(Πλατεία Δημοκρατίας today),took it's name from the river because it is placed in the west side  of the city and the people arriving there and coming from the West should pass in their way to the city a bridge over Axios river.The "red light houses" are still on the roads around this square even though the area has lost in great level its bad reputation of the previous decades.

     Hope I gave a few things you didn't know...

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Here is another guess for the first lines of the poem:The situation described in them I think it's the following:

  The ship is entering a cold night ,with the wind against it(as it is Βαρδάρης=North wind), into Thermaikos Gulf ,towards the port of Salonika.The second line means that the ship is proceeding slowly(and with some effort too)forward,and in the third line they measure the depth of the sea in order to stay into deep waters(don't forget they enter a gulf).I believe it's the most "economic"(as they say in semiotics) explanation ,but only a seaman could tell us for sure...

   As for the line χωρίς χρυσάφι στο μανίκι ,it's open to some very stimulating explanations:here are few:

1.Without having become an officer even now(σαν τότε)

2.without wearing the officer's suit

3.(less probable)without any money

     

Μοre to come...

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YES! thank you gazaka!!

now I can rack my brains to find the right English verb for line 2 (understanding is one thing, expressing another...).

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More light in πρώτος and γραδάρω:I finally asked a seaman(my uncle was an engineer on ships for 25 years)and I guess he knows better   :mad: So, πρώτος in Greek ships is always the first engineer ,not the officer below the captain,whose name is γραμματικός in Greek seamen's language.And this makes perfect sense with γραδάρω because,according my uncle, this verb means "1)measure the purity(acidity-alcality) of the water in the boilers of the ship's steam-engines,2)measure the level of the salt in the water when the ship is getting in or out a river"and as we don't have the second situation in the poem,and furthermore is the engineer who gives here the order ,I think the first meaning is the correct.

So I was wrong too(but it was so convenient :mad: )

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About τυφλό κορίτσι σ'οδηγάει,παιδί του Modigliani:find some paintings of Modigliani and you'll know why Καββαδίας speaks of a blind girl(which is)a child of Modigliani:most of the women in his paintings are kind of blind.As for Μαρμαρινοί I just want to say that there is a gulf of Marmaras in Greece,specifically in Chalkidike.

    Maybe,I'm wrong in this(but after all it's poetry and everybody has the right to guess a lot),but this is what I think about those two lines:on the ship there is a painting of Modigliani and the cadet and two other members of the crew like it a lot.Now ,in the present of the poem,the poet's thoughts maybe guided by this blind girl-how queer to be guided by someone blind!

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