alquimista

70's,80's or 90's?

39 posts in this topic

If I remember correctly, in some other posting I wrote a PS that in case of Dalaras and Rebetiko the things are a little bit more difficult to judge. Because of the late time (half past 2 in the morning) in combination with difficulties in expressing in English  I cannot give here and now a detailed answer. (Anway, if a discussion about this matter is of interest for you, you should open a new thread so that we do not start to discuss about different things in the same thread.)

For the moment only a very short reply:

One of the most important differences to "Krymmena kleidia" is that in case of the rebetika ("50 xronia rebetiko tragoudi", "Ta rebetika tis katoxis" etc.) Dalaras (and his musicians) did not really change the substance of the songs - they remained quite near the original versions (at least as far as I can judge). That is completely different in case of "Krymmena kleidia" (you will have read Annemarie's posting concerning this song) but also for example in the second version of "Enas kompos i xara mou" (the one with Pyx-Lax).

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ok, I understand but I have another question (believe me, I am not trying to be a smart ass. I am really trying to see why something that I find really beautiful, somebody else is about to say it is unethical).

So , here is my question:

A song that we both like, Mi mou thimoneis matia mou, was first recorded, not in the album, Sta psila ta parathiria, but in a different one, I think in 1962, with the voice of Yiannis Poulopoulos (I am sure you know who it is and I am also sure that you like him, although that is a speculation).

When Stavros Kougioumtzis gave that song to Dalaras, almost 13 years later, after he heard him singing it, he said publicly, that this was the best way the song could be sung.

So, if I understand what you are saying right, Kougioumtzis was being unethical to himself and if he wasn't, it is because it was his own song. Now, the version with Dalaras is quite different (and for those years, as different as it gets) from the original. However, the new version, at the time, was (accrding to the song's own composer) superior to the original.

So, is it a question of who gives permission or whether or not change is good?

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Gia na mhn to kourazeis re Mihali mias kai den mporeis na ekfrasteis kala na sou dwsw egw th lysh.

Kata 99.99% o Dalaras oti tragoudi pei tha to pei kalytera apo opoiondhpote allon. Kai na to paw kai ena bhma parapera. Apo oso ton exw akousei se synavlies, exei pei tragoudia kalytera apo tis original ermhneutries gynaikes. Pou an xereis apo mousikh tha symfwnhseis pws tragoudia pou exoun graftei gia gynaikeies fwnes einai poly dyskolo na ta pou antres. Kai omws o theos to ekane. Afhnw vevaia ena 0.01% pososto na parousiastei ena tragoudi pou den tha mporesei na to pei kalytera etsi gia na mhn se stenoxwrisw. Auta, ta leme.

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Soc, I have also the original version of "Mi mou thymoneis matia mou" with Poulopoulos (a singer I indeed like - your assumption is correct). And of course I admit that I prefer the second version with Dalaras and that to my mind it is indeed superior to the original. - BUT:

1. In this case it was the composer himself who decided to arrange a new version and to choose another interpreter. (It's almost a philosophical question, but I think one cannot be unethical towards himself - only towards others.)

(It would be of interest to hear Kougioumtzis' opinion about the modern version of "Enas kompos i xara mou" which is not his own arrangement.)  

2. To my mind the character of the song "Mi mou thymoneis matia mou" did not change so radical in the second version as it seems to be in the case of "Krymmena kleidia" (I refer again to Annemarie's posting) or as it happened in the case of "Enas kompos i xara mou". (Of course this is again a subjective evaluation but I think you won't reject it as completely wrong.)

3. In the case of the traditional French song ("Krymmena kleidia" ) moreover Dalaras changes a part of ANOTHER culture (= not his "own" one) according to his personal taste. Why did'nt he have at least so much respect towards the original to sing it in an authentic version? (Something which fortunately seemed to have happened in case of "Latin".)

4. Finally, from this French song we (at least most of us, I think) do not even know an authentic version. So I think it is completely wrong to state in advance that this version is good (or perhaps even superior) only because it has to do with Dalaras (as singer and as musician who made the orchestration).

Ston Dimitri:

To parapanw simeio 4 einai kiolas meros tis apantisis sti diapistwsi sou: "Kata 99.99% o Dalaras oti tragoudi pei tha to pei kalytera apo opoiondhpote allon."

Ligo dyskolo na tekmiriwsoume afto se periptwsi pou den kseroume oute kan kapoia afthentiki ektelesi.

Kata ta alla, me osa egrapsa den amfevala gia tis aretes kai tin omorfia tis fwnis tou Ntalara (mou aresei i fwni tou akoma kai sta "Krymmena kleidia"!) alla anaferthika stin epilogi kai ston tropo parousiasis (= diaskevi kai enorxistrwsi) aftou tou tragoudiou.

Alitheia, gnwrizeis to tragoudi "Thelw na ta pw" (tou Aki Panou) stin defteri ektelesi me ton Lewnida Velli? Kata ti gnwmi mou afti i ermineia (= i fwni tou Veli se afto to tragoudi) einai toulaxiston isaksia, an oxi "kalyteri", apo ekeini tou Ntalara.  

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I also agree with Geeske, Chris and Sarantis.The songs of each decade are different from the past  decade's but the same excellent!!!

I wouldn't be able to compare them, as well.

Although, I like more the 70s, maybe because I wasn't born yet, until the late 70s, and I have mythologized this period of time where there was a dictatorship in Greece and social-political  disorder, and then the Turks' invasion in Cyprus, afterwards the emigration in the USA, Australia, Germany etc... I just consider those songs as the songs of the pained greek people and they touch me more. I don't know why, but I think those songs speak to my heart and his unique voice makes them so expressive! It's like he was born to sing those songs. I can't imagine anyone else singing them so perfectly!!

Of course, I don't mean that I don't like the rest of his work, which is also exceptional!!. And I also agree with something that has been mentioned in another topic-If I'm not mistaken Sarantis must have said it-that Dalaras's songs are for thinking listeners.Every song of his, even the one:"Me lene Popi".

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Tha symfwnhsw en merei. Yparxoun omws merika tragoudia pou mas "milane" akomh kai shmera asxeta apo poia dekaetia einai. Ta kouvalame sthn plath mas, mesa sta gonidia mas.Kai auto einai kai apo tis epityxies tou Ntalara. Mas aresoun ta kainourgia tragoudia alla theloume na akoume kathe fora kai auta pou mas exoun sygkinhsei, ta "dika" mas. Gia auto kai se kathe synavlia h se kentro ta zhtame. Giati theloume na ta akousoume twra,  me auth th fwnh tou Ntalara. Na ta tragoudhsoume mazi tou, na niwsoume wraia.

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Nai, Dimitri, 8a symfwnhsw mazi sou. Dioti ta tragoudia pou exei tragoudhsei o Dalaras, sth diarkeia aytwn twn 3,5 dekaetiwn ths karieras tou, ektos tou oti einai arrhkta syndedemena me thn poreia kai ta biwmata tou ellhnikou laou s'aytes tis dekaeties, kai synepws mas sygkinoun perissotero, emperiexoun stoixeia diaxronika, miloun gia a3ies kai idanika, lene alh8eies oi opoies einai epikaires akomh kai shmera. Nomizw de 8a htan yperbolh an ta xarakthriza "sofa tragoudia".

Kai fysika, 8a prepei na laboume ypopsin oti o Giorgos Dalaras  tragoudaei ta paliotera tragoudia tou to idio ΄h isws kai perissotero ekfrastika kai shmera, giati einai o idios Giorgos Dalaras pou htan kai tote me th diafora isws oti ta xronia pou exoun perasei ton exoun wrimasei, ton exoun dida3ei pragmata, ton exoun e3eli3ei.alla se kamia periptwsh den ton exoun kanei na 3exasei ΄h na aparnh8ei estw kai sto elaxisto, ayto pou htan sto parel8on. Kai ayto bebaia nomizw oti ton exei ferei kai sthn koryfh ths epityxias. To oti dhladh den 3exnaei to parel8on tou, pataei, sthrizetai panw s'ayto alla proxwra(de menei stasimos)sto mellon, prosarmozomenos stis nees syn8hkes, xwris omws na symbibazetai me aytes.

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Look here, folks, you're not even typing greek letters, so I can't use the dictionnary :)

If you knew the time it takes me to decipher your sudden posts in Greek, you might take pity and write in English... After all, you do know it real well - so come on, show it off!

Ach, life is so hard for a poor barbarian... ;)

:)

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I have the same problem Geeske, if it's written in Greek letters at least when I lose some words I can look them up, but this Gringlish stuff (as the English Cypriots call it!) is too diffucult to understand, I much prefer to read Greek in GREEK.  Please if you have the fonts use this as it's so hard for anyone struggling with the language (all us non Greeks) to get the correct meaning, so I end up giving up and not reading the posts - what am I missing!!!!!!

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What I do enjoy - for excercise ;) - are the short posts in Greek, three-four lines, and then back to English (DimitrisK and Alquimista do them quite well, in particular).

I love the Tower of Babel feeling.

But if they're longer... and/or in Gringlish... I give up  :)

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Ok, I apologise for writing in a Gringlish(as Lynne has said) style. I only did this because Dimitris had answered in one of my previous posts in the same way. I see it's very difficult for you to understand what I'm saying and because of the fact that I don't want you to feel that you are in the Babel's Tower, that's why some good people have established English as an international language, I'll write it again in English.

So, my last post was:

"Yes, Dimitri, I'll agree with you. Because the songs that Dalaras has sung during these 3,5 decades of his career, apart from the fact that they are closely related to the bioms of greek people in those decades, and consequently affect us and touch us more, they contain diachronic issues, values and ideals. These songs tell truths current even nowadays, as well. "As SPQR has very succesfully pointed, these songs always generate strong feelings to us."I think I wouldn't exaggerate if i said that we have to do with 'wise' songs.

Moreover, we should take in mind that George Dalaras sings his old songs the same or even more expressivelly today, than he did then. Above from his voice, that has really developed,in my opinion, this is because he is the same person(I mean in character) as then, with the only difference that the years having passed have made him more mature, he has been taught a lot from life, he has progressed. Furthermore, after all these years he hasn't forgotten(not at least)where he has started from, what his past has been.Although, he hasn't stayed there saying:"Oh, that's what people like to hear from me, so I'll concentrate to this music style."No, standing on the past and respecting his work until then, he has carried on to the future, always respecting his audience-we have to admit that.

I believe this is/should be the "secret of success" for every   successful artist. To always remember and respect the past, move on to the future, adjust to the new circumstances but never compromise, I mean never become a 'prisoner' of the circumstances ."

Sorry again for troubling you all with the writing style.

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Eleni, THANK YOU!

You really don't need to apologize - first, because greek IS your language, and second, because it's the most beautiful language there is.

Besides, you've more than made up, by translating your post, because that is how I learn. Ευχαριστώ!

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Geeske,

you do very well with Greek, I think you deserve CONGRADULATIONS!!!! And I'm really glad you like the language so much!!!

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