Makria ap'ta psemata

[Niki 0]

Well, I have neglaced this section and I'm really sorry ... So here is one song of my favourites this time...        

     ΜΑΚΡΙΑ ΑΠ' ΤΑ ΨΕΜΑΤΑ

Θα φύγω ένα πρωί μακριά απ' τα ψέματα

προτού με κλείσουν πάλι συρματοπλέγματα

θα αφήσω μες το χτες τους καθοδηγητές

σε πεθαμένο κόσμο φονιάδες και ληστές

θα αφήσω πίσω μου κοπάδια όσους πεινούν

με ταξικές ανάγκες που θα τους τυραννούν

Φίλοι εσείς της ερημιάς δεν είναι κόσμος τούτος για μας

χρόνια το αίμα ενός λαού καθρέφτης είναι τ' ουρανού

Θα αφήσω ένα πρωί τη διαλεκτική

θα φύγω και θ' αρχίσω δουλειά και πρακτική

γιατί πολλοί σιωπούν και κείνοι που μιλούν

στην ίδια τους πατρίδα σαν πρόσφυγες ρωτούν

ποιο κόμμα το μπορεί τον ουρανό να πιει

τη θάλασσα να κλείσει στου ανθρώπου την ψυχή

Φίλοι εσείς της ερημιάς δεν είναι κόσμος τούτος για μας

χρόνια το αίμα ενός λαού καθρέφτης είναι τ' ουρανού

Θα φύγω ένα πρωί να βρω το τέρμα μου

και δόξα άλλου κόσμου να μπει στο αίμα μου

το ρούχο μιας γενιάς το μάυρο ντύθηκα

μα τώρα φεύγω μόνος όπως γεννήθηκα

και φεύγω δυνατός μακριά απ' τα ψέματα

προτού με κλείσουν πάλι συρματοπλέγματα

         AWAY FROM THE LIES

I'll leave one morning away from the lies

before wire-nettings lock me up again,

I'll leave in yesterday the leaders,

in a dead world (I'll leave) killers and thiefs,

I'll leave behind me in crowds those who are hungry

with class needs that they will be torchuring them.

You, friends of the solitude, this is not a world for us.

For years the blood of a nation is a mirror of the sky.

I'll leave one morning the talking

I'll leave and start having job and doing actions,

because many are silent and those who do talk,

they ask like refugees in their own country,

what party can dring the sky,

(what party can) lock the sea in the human soul.

You friends of the solitude, this is not a world for us.

For years the blood of a nation is a mirror of the sky.

I'll leave one morning to find my end,

and (to find) a glory of another world to enter my blood,

the black clothes of a generation I was dressed,

but now I leave alone as I was born,

and I leave strong away from the lies

before wire-nettings lock me up again...  

I just love the lyricks... Hope we 'll all one day make our own escape...(no matter what each one of us means with that...)  That's a wish...

[Geske 37]

"Look, don't you see the sun shining on the Pentagon, all the roofs are off, the sun shines at last into the corridors of power... And they shrivel up, they wither away. The green grass grows through the carpets of the Oval Room, the Hot Line is disconnected for nonpayment of the bill.

The first thing we'll do is build an electrified fence outside the electrical fence around the White House. The inner one prevents unauthorized persons from getting in. The outer one will prevent authorized persons from getting out..."

A dream, from a book I love, by the author I love and admire above all others.

For you, Niki, to thank you.

[nikolas 86]

Forgive me for becoming prosaic, but this song gives me the opportunity to recount a small story.

There was a student, well what student, he was 40 years old, but he was a student anyway. When I used to hold the buffet of the Student Hall in Patra with a friend, we used to play this tape very often, almost once a day. When this 40 year old student passed by, he listened to this song, stopped and came inside shouting: 'Where did you find that song? I am looking for it from 1983!'  

The whole thing ended with a long conversation until late night, where he was explaining that the profit going to the employee rather to the employer is realistic and we stood there as an example in fact, taking the whole profit of the buffet, for the period we had the responsibility (given by draw) and of course, he wouldn't leave without a copy of the tape, which we happily offered him, violating all the copyrights of the world  :sarcasm:

I know I am prosaic, but isn't this

profit going to the employee rather to the employer

very poetic?

[soc 1]

I don't know economics at all but isn't this a whole different

school of thought in economics?

Niki,

you got me into the album now. I am ordering it in a cd. That will replace my 18 year old record

(editing)

now this starts making sense. This was my favorite song way back. Θα φύγω ένα πρωί μακριά απ' τα ψέματα. Hmmmm.....I wonder why it was my favorite song. .........Life is so strange.....I am stopping, 10 o'clock in the morning and I διαλογίζομαι......it's against the song itself......back to who gets the profits and to who should own the means

[nikolas 86]

I don't know economics at all but isn't this a whole different

school of thought in economics?

Soc, then why do you speak when you are not an expert? Here we want a University professor of economics to speak. Do you have anyone in your mind?    

[soc 1]

yeah, there is one, but this person must be really busy these days trying to understant what the #### went wrong and how it can be fixed

[francois 4]

"Look, don't you see the sun shining on the Pentagon, all the roofs are off, the sun shines at last into the corridors of power... And they shrivel up, they wither away. The green grass grows through the carpets of the Oval Room, the Hot Line is disconnected for nonpayment of the bill.

The first thing we'll do is build an electrified fence outside the electrical fence around the White House. The inner one prevents unauthorized persons from getting in. The outer one will prevent authorized persons from getting out..."

I like this quote very much Geeske! Where did you get it from?

[Geske 37]

Ursula Le Guin.

The author who is to my experience of reading, what Dalaras is to my experience of music - except that she's been with me much longer; and while Dalaras had to bypass my un-musicality, I've been severely addicted to reading since age 5 or so: so that there is only one other person in the world who has had a more profound influence on my way of thinking, of living, of being, than ms LeGuin.

This particular quote is from The New Atlantis, a novella, which you will find in the short story collection "The "Compass Rose".

[Geske 37]

Still worried about the other post.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but - Nikolas, your profit from that evening at the buffet was also the conversation with that man, not just the money you made, right?

I reminds me of how some (economists, politicians) say that housewives should get a salary: instead of recognizing the kind of reward housewives _do_ get, they try and replace it with the kind of rewards they (economists, politicians) understand.

If you can't measure it in money, it's not real?

(I really don't know the first thing about economics, but other kinds of scientists do it too: "if you can't weigh it, it's not real", that kind of attitude).

[francois 4]

Thank you so much Geeske for the references. I'll try and get the book. Thanks again.  

[nikolas 86]

Yes Geeske, that is absolutely true. I enjoyed that person, as an example of one who selects his approach to life quite early and sticks with it for a long time, by choice, without occasional and utilitarian moves.

[Geske 37]

This is a difficult song, though rather less ambiguous than many others by Eleftheriou. How i DO admire that man!

I don't mean to demean Niki's effort - after all it was what first helped me understand the song! But it's difficult enough to need, and deserve, a little more precision in english. I've made the translation as clear as I could and added some notes - I hope I didn't mess up too badly.

In any case the rest of this topic is worth re-reading, it never fails to cheer me up immensely.

Μακριά απ' τα ψέματα_____||_____ Away from the lying

Μουσική: Νίκος Λαβράνος_____||_____ Music: Nikos Lavrakos

Στίχοι: Μάνος Ελευθερίου_____||_____ Lyrics: Manos Elefteriou

Θα φύγω ένα πρωί μακριά απ' τα ψέματα_____||_____ One morning I will go away, far away from the lying,

προτού με κλείσουν πάλι συρματοπλέγματα_____||_____ before the barbed wire fences close me in again.

θα αφήσω μες το χτες τους καθοδηγητές_____||_____ I will leave the leaders to yesterday,

σε πεθαμένο κόσμο φονιάδες και ληστές_____||_____ to a dead world, murderers and robbers,

θα αφήσω πίσω μου κοπάδια όσους πεινούν_____||_____ I will leave behind in droves all those who hunger

με ταξικές ανάγκες που θα τους τυραννούν_____||_____ from the needs of their class *, the needs that will go on tormenting them.

Φίλοι εσείς της ερημιάς _____||_____ You who love the lonely wilderness:

δεν είναι κόσμος τούτος για μας_____||_____ this world is not made for us.

χρόνια το αίμα ενός λαού _____||_____ For years now the blood of a people

καθρέφτης είναι τ' ουρανού_____||_____ has been reflecting the sky like a mirror.

Θα αφήσω ένα πρωί τη διαλεκτική_____||_____ One morning I will leave behind the dialectics,

θα φύγω και θ' αρχίσω δουλειά και πρακτική_____||_____ I will go away and start work, practical work.

γιατί πολλοί σιωπούν και κείνοι που μιλούν_____||_____ Because many keep silent, and those who do speak,

στην ίδια τους πατρίδα σαν πρόσφυγες ρωτούν_____||_____ are, in their own homeland, asking like refugees:

ποιο κόμμα το μπορεί τον ουρανό να πιει_____||_____ which party can do this, can drink up the sky,

τη θάλασσα να κλείσει στου ανθρώπου την ψυχή_____||_____ can lock the sea into mankind's soul?

Φίλοι εσείς της ερημιάς _____||_____ You who love the lonely wilderness:

δεν είναι κόσμος τούτος για μας_____||_____ this world is not made for us.

χρόνια το αίμα ενός λαού _____||_____ For years now the blood of a people

καθρέφτης είναι τ' ουρανού_____||_____ has been reflecting the sky like a mirror.

Θα φύγω ένα πρωί να βρω το τέρμα μου_____||_____ One morning I will go away, go to find my destination,

και δόξα άλλου κόσμου να μπει στο αίμα μου_____||_____ and the glory of another world will enter my blood.

το ρούχο μιας γενιάς το μάυρο ντύθηκα_____||_____ I had put on the black clothing of a certain generation,

μα τώρα φεύγω μόνος όπως γεννήθηκα_____||_____ but now I am going away, alone, as I was born,

και φεύγω δυνατός μακριά απ' τα ψέματα_____||_____ and I am leaving, I am strong, far away from the lying,

προτού με κλείσουν πάλι συρματοπλέγματα_____||_____ before the barbed wire fences close me in again.

* Leaders, class, dialectics: the vocabulary of "class struggle" - Eleftheriou is plunging his knife into the gap between the ideals and the rhetorics of the Left, especially the communists.

* You who love the lonely wilderness: the hermit - from the Greek ερημίτης (erimitis), a person who, for spiritual reasons, chooses to live alone in a wild place (erimia). They were common all over Europe in the Middle-ages. The practice originated in the East and came here by way of Greece. This very personal, individual form of spirituality was not encouraged by organised religion, just because it was not organised. Its positive aspect is the individual's taking their own responsibility for their own soul, its negative aspect is their turning away from the community and their responsibility towards it.

[Geske 37]

p.s.

I see this song as the statement of someone who chooses to go alone, seeking their own personal truth, refusing the ready-made one of a political party. Or organised religion.

And I never realized (until I sat down to translate it myself) how very closely applicable it is to Dalaras himself.

[Geske 37]

I've got this doubt:

ποιο κόμμα το μπορεί τον ουρανό να πιει_____||_____ which party can do this, can drink up the sky,

τη θάλασσα να κλείσει στου ανθρώπου την ψυχή_____||_____ can close the sea, in mankind's soul? [meaning: the sea, the abyss, which exists people's soul, dividing it]

or

ποιο κόμμα το μπορεί τον ουρανό να πιει_____||_____ which party can do this, can drink up the sky,

τη θάλασσα να κλείσει στου ανθρώπου την ψυχή_____||_____ can lock the sea inside mankind's soul? [meaning: to put the (huge, wide, open) sea into people's (small, narrow) soul]

Typical Eleftheriou.

[Michael 2]

------- (Sorry, I clicked in a wrong way. )

[Michael 2]

θα αφήσω πίσω μου κοπάδια όσους πεινούν_____||_____ I will leave behind in droves all those who hunger

με ταξικές ανάγκες που θα τους τυραννούν_____||_____ from the needs of their class *, the needs that will go on tormenting them.

* Leaders, class, dialectics: the vocabulary of "class struggle" - Eleftheriou is plunging his knife into the gap between the ideals and the rhetorics of the Left, especially the communists.

As usually, I do not understand what Elevtheriou says (though I am convinced that it is something completely logic and concrete) but in any case I think that the "from" in the translation cannot be correct. To my mind it would have to be something like:

"I will leave behind in droves all those who hunger (or perhaps only: are hungry [as Niki had traslated it])? /

with class needs that will torture them"

(As I see now, this is more or less Niki's version.)

I will explain:

1. "με", as far as I know, in English could not have the meaning "from", but only "with" (or something similar). So I think that "με" has no (direct) relation with the word "πεινούν", but with "θα αφήσω πίσω" respectively "κοπάδια". Like I would say: "I will leave these droves who (firstly) hunger and (secondly) have class needs "

2. "πεινώ" in Greek can be: a) "be (feel) hungry" and b ) "hunger/starve". I think that Elevtheriou means the first one: He speaks primarily about Greek/western society (I assume) - at a time when people did not starve but some may have felt hunger (because of their bad economical situation etc). Or maybe he uses the word in an completely metaphorical sense: they feel hungry (or perhaps here would fit the word "hunger/starve") for ideals, for a deeper sense in their life etc. (???)

3. "ταξικές ανάγκες": I think that Niki's "class needs" was correct. It is used here as a political term (as Geske also pointed out) like "class struggle" ("ταξικός αγώνας"), "class war" ("ταξικός πόλεμος"), "class conscience" ("ταξική συνείδηση") etc. (All these terms in the way I found them in my Greek-English dictionary.)

4. "που θα τους τυραννούν": I am not sure about the correct meaning of the English expression "go on" (tormenting them). If it means "continue" (as I assume) it should be replaced as the original text speaks only about something that will happen in the future and not of something which already takes place now. If "go on" means "permanently" but (only) in the future it seems o.k. to me.

το ρούχο μιας γενιάς το μάυρο ντύθηκα_____||_____ I had put on the black clothing of my generation,

It is a small detail, but having in mind the ambiguity of Elevtheriou's lyrics you referred to, we should be very cautious :

Probably Elevtheriou means indeed "my generation" but as he does not say it explicitly we also should not use it in the translation. Perhaps there would be correct something like: "I had put on the black clothing of a whole generation"? (I know, this is also a little bit of interpretation , but perhaps closer to the expression "μιας γενιάς" than yours, Geske.)

Φίλοι εσείς της ερημιάς _____||_____ You who love the lonely wilderness:

δεν είναι κόσμος τούτος για μας_____||_____ this world is not made for us.

* You who love the lonely wilderness: the hermit - from the Greek ερημίτης (erimitis), a person who, for spiritual reasons, chooses to live alone in a wild place (erimia). They were common all over Europe in the Middle-ages. The practice originated in the East and came here by way of Greece. This very personal, individual form of spirituality was not encouraged by organised religion, just because it was not organised. Its positive aspect is the individual's taking their own responsibility for their own soul, its negative aspect is their turning away from the community and their responsibility towards it.

Geske, I do not doubt about what you write in your remark, but I think that Elevtheriou did not have in mind (especially) this type of people with a religious, spiritual background. "Φίλοι της ερημιάς" can be completely different people from hermits (ερημίτες). This part of the song reminds me strongly to other lyrics of Elevtheriou, namely "Θέλω να φύγω σ επαρχία". (We have discussed about this song somewhere here in the Forum.) In both songs he describes very similar feelings (the longing for withdrawal etc.) but in both without reference to spiritual (or even religious) aspects. To my mind (especially in this song here) to me it seems not be an isolation for spiritual reasons but for reasons which have to do with disappointment/rejection of the society etc. Something in the way you wrote it by yourself: "I see this song as the statement of someone who chooses to go alone, seeking their own personal truth, refusing the ready-made one of a political party. Or organised religion." (But surely not especially concerning the field of religion or similar metaphysical aspects.)

I've got this doubt:

ποιο κόμμα το μπορεί τον ουρανό να πιει_____||_____ which party can do this, can drink up the sky,

τη θάλασσα να κλείσει στου ανθρώπου την ψυχή_____||_____ can close the sea, in mankind's soul? [meaning: the sea, the abyss, which exists people's soul, dividing it]

or

ποιο κόμμα το μπορεί τον ουρανό να πιει_____||_____ which party can do this, can drink up the sky,

τη θάλασσα να κλείσει στου ανθρώπου την ψυχή_____||_____ can lock the sea inside mankind's soul? [meaning: to put the (huge, wide, open) sea into people's (small, narrow) soul]

Typical Eleftheriou.

Indeed, typical Elevtheriou.

Geske, I must confess that I did not really understand what you mean with the first version. But in any case here there are (once more) different possible ways of interpreting his lyrics (and as usually, I think that there would be a certain "correct" one).

When we deal with Elevtheriou's lyrics (Geske, sorry for the "we" ) it always reminds me of blinds speaking about colours. (That is a metaphorical expression used in German whose meaning is obvious, I think). :lol:

________

PS 1:

By concentrating on the lyrics I realize that this is a very interesting song. I almost never listen to it because I find the music extremely shallow. The music tells me absolutely nothing (and in my mind it does not fit at all with the lyrics). (Nikos Lavranos has composed also very beautiful songs, but this here: )

PS 2:

p.s.

I see this song as the statement of someone who chooses to go alone, seeking their own personal truth, refusing the ready-made one of a political party. Or organised religion.

And I never realized (until I sat down to translate it myself) how very closely applicable it is to Dalaras himself.

No, I do not see a relationship with Dalaras. Not at all. (Especially because in the case of Dalaras there is not this act of withdrawal from the society which is the central idea of the song.) But presumably the lyrics have a strong connection with Elevtheriou himself.

[Geske 37]

I received another opinion on

ποιο κόμμα το μπορεί τον ουρανό να πιει_____||_____ which party can do this, can drink up the sky,

τη θάλασσα να κλείσει στου ανθρώπου την ψυχή_____||_____ .........

and have modified the translation accordingly.

Michael:

1. "from" as in "because of".

2. no disagreement

3. "class struggle" and the others are existing expressions in English, that's why they were in your dictionnary - "class needs" is not. One reason is that the concept "ανανγη" has no _real_ equivalent in English. "The needs of their class" is not very good either but the more correct "the needs caused by their belonging to a particular class" is really too long.

As for "blind people discussing colours", I rather agree. But you have to say "blind people", because "blinds" in English means..... sunshades! You can say "the blind" when speaking about "any and all blind people" in general, but it's never used without the article.

This is completely off-topic.....

I agree that the lyrics are a lot stronger than the melody, in this song. But then they are _extremely_ strong lyrics.

4. "Go on" as in "permanently - the difference between θα τυρρανούν and θα τυρραννήσουν (a refinement of verb-usage that I really miss in other languages than Greek).

"of my generation"

I wasn't happy with it either, an have changed it to "of a certain generation" - the closest I've found so far.

Hermits - actually i didn't mean to imply that Eleftheriou thought only of this particular kind of wilderness lovers, I started out to make clear the relation between the greek ερημια and our word hermit, and got carried away.

[Michael 2]

1. "from" as in "because of".

Well, neither my English nor my ability to understand Elevtheriou's lyrics are sufficient to judge in a substantial way what could be right now or wrong. But I fear that a "from" in the sense of "because of" is not correct too. Because in this case in the greek text there would be necessary instead of the "με" some other word, perhaps "για" or something else (I think).

As for "blind people discussing colours", I rather agree. But you have to say "blind people", because "blinds" in English means..... sunshades! You can say "the blind" when speaking about "any and all blind people" in general, but it's never used without the article.

This is completely off-topic.....

Thanks for the correction. You see: My English is: ( )

4. "Go on" as in "permanently - the difference between θα τυρρανούν and θα τυρραννήσουν (a refinement of verb-usage that I really miss in other languages than Greek).

Then it is o.k. Thank you for the explanation.

Hermits - actually i didn't mean to imply that Eleftheriou thought only of this particular kind of wilderness lovers, I started out to make clear the relation between the greek ερημια and our word hermit, and got carried away.

I see.