soc

What do you think?

90 posts in this topic

Gia poli kairo me apasxolouse to zitima gia to opoio tha miliso. Panta ithela na to theso gia sizitisi se auto to site, giati iparxoun anthropoi, ti gnomi ton opoion sevomai kai ektimo. To thema einai i diethnis parousia tou Giorgou Dalara. Eftasa sto simeio na thelo mia dimosia sizitisi meso tou  diktiou, eidika meta apo mia sinaulia pou eida se ena theatro tis Vostonis tin perasmeni xronia. Eutixos i parousa selida, etsi opos einai tora prosferetai gia sovari sizitisi epi tou thematos.

Loipon: Perisi loipon, to Wang theatre tis Vostonis gemise. Xoris kamia diafimisi. Xoris kanena promotion. Xoris mia afisa, mia anakoinosi sto radiofono. I eidisi gia ti sinaulia egine gnosti apo stoma se stoma kai apo ta ellinika mesa enimerosis pou eixan anakoinosei to programma tis diethnis periodias stin Ellada. Diladi, o Amerikanos politis den eixe kanenan tropo na pliroforithei gi 'autin ti sinaulia. To idio kai tessera xronia prin sto Madison Square Garden, kai perisi gia to Mondo Melodia pou anavlithike (auti einai poli endiaferousa istoria, epi ti eukairia).

Auto pou prospatho na po einai oti i periodia den apeuthinotan se diethnes koino all stous Ellinoamerikanous kai stous Ellines pou zoun edo. Den ksero ean to idio simvainei kai stin Europi, pithanos oxi.

Episis, ean pate sto Amazon.com tha vreite 3 i 4 cd tou Dalara, tou eidous "Ta kalitera" ktl. Emeis edo ta cd ta paraggelnoume apo tin Astoria sti New York i ton Canada.

Auto pou thelo na po einai oti i diethnis karriera tou Giorgou Dalara apeuthinetai stous Ellines tou eksoterikou kai oxi stous ksenous (toulaxiston auti einai i entiposi pou exo ego edo pera)

Loipon, auto einai adiko kai kapoios prepei na to pei sta grafeia agoras pou analamvanoun tis periodeies. Giati einai adiko? Opoios exei mpei sto autokinito mou, midenos eksairoumenou, exei latrepsei, ti mousiki, ti foni, to tempo, ta tragoudia kai amesos arxizoun na mou zitane na tous eksigiso tous stixous. To epomeno vima einai na ftiaxno kassetes. Me tragoudia tou Giorgou palia kai kainouria. Kai milame gia Amerikanous, Tourkous, Kanadous, Europaious, NotioAmerikanous. Einai apisteuto to poso tous aresei.

Mou fainetai loipon adiko gia to talento kai tin aksia aftou tou anthropou, vgainei sto eksoteriko, na ton vlepoun mono ellines (katalavenetai fisika oti iparxoun kai ksenoi sto koino, kathe fora, kai efoson auto simvainei xoris diafimisi kai promotion, dinamonei to epixeirima mou).

Elpizo oti o kainourios manager tha prospathisei pros auti tin kateuthinsi, an kai pisteuo oti to kanei idi, kai malista me epitixia.

Tha ithela na akouso tis apopseis sas gi' auto. Kai min ksexnate oti anaferomai apokleistika stin Ameriki. Elpizo ta pragmata stin Europi einai diaforetika.

Euxaristo

PS: Nikola, signomi gia to lathos section pou esteila to proigoumeno minima. Meta to lathos pou ekana kai gia to quiz, anarotiemai ti den paei kala. Mallon xalarono poli otan mpaino sti selida auti. Tin agapimeni mou.

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Well, I can only speak for Sweden, but it is the same way here. Of course the Greek community knows his music, but I would be surprised if more than a thousand "real Swedes" had even heard his name. There is no way you can buy Greek records (other than some old Rebetika recordings (since these are REAL Greek music :rolleyes: ) and perhaps some Best of Dalaras thingy, if you are very lucky), although there might be a light in the end of the tunnel. As you all probably know, Antique are from Sweden. I remember how surprised I was when I heard their version of "Opa, opa" the first time. And then more surprised when people liked the music! I mean, they sang in Greek and had a fairly bad "Dance version" of an old Greek song. Anyway, they may give Greek music in Sweden a helping hand, I'm not sure.

Andreas

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Well, I think that it can't be otherwise! No matter how much we like Dalaras' songs, there are some facts that keep the situation like this. The main and most important two are the language and the culture(maybe one). Don't forget that even other Greek artists who made success worldwide, didn't sing in Greek. The language is a big problem. Also the culture. People from Western Europe or US are used to the simple 4/4 tempo and is hard for them to accept some special greek rythms. Just because they don't have similal local music.

Despite those, I have been to a couple of concerts in Europe, where I realized that the audience is mixed. I don't speak about 10% non-Greeks but much more. Those people probably have greek friends who introduced them to this music or visited Greece before etc. Those are not the majority of the local people but also the majority of non Greeks who know Dalaras, want to go to his concert...

Finally, I believe that in order for a greek performer to have a wider target audience, he/she has to sing in english and use popular forms of music, like pop, rock etc. But then, this wouldn't be greek...

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The difference in language/culture is a two edged knife: it makes the song harder to understand, to 'get into', but it also makes it proportionaly more interesting.

It's a sign of our times (our crazy, mixed-up times) that on the one hand, we get flooded with utterly fake mass-produced records made only to make money, while on the other hand the concept 'world music' is taking hold everywhere - so that the Fins and the Bulgarians and the Cubans and the Greek are all playing each others music. Sometimes the results can be pretty awful, as in any experiment, but  that's a risk one has to take (Agapi sou to risko :-) ).

Of course there are always people who only want to listen to what is safe and known.

But for the others, the people with ears and a heart of their own, I think they will appreciate Dalaras as he is - especially with the help of wonderful sites like Nikolas', where they can get some help with background information, lyrics, even translations.

Nikolas, I venture to disagree with you about the necessity of siging in English. I may be useful, but it is not necessary, I don't think so. I don't want to think so.

By the way, I've heard Dalaras sing Spanish, Latin and Italian - and I've probably missed others... That is pretty cosmopolitan! Especially the Spanish.

Andreas, Sweden has folk music of its own (and very good too), so perhaps they have less "room in their ears" for Greek? Here in Holland, Dalaras concerts attract amazing numbers of Dutch.

Of course we have NO indigenous folk music worth the name, and a tradition of adopting anything foreign that pleases us, wether language, food, music or what not. So his wonderful voice would be falling on starved ears :-))

Just this morning, I've discovered the existence of a band composed of Dutch musicians, who play Greek music - aiming at 'authentic zeimbekiko' - haven't heard what they sound like yet, though ;-)

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I have two points to make. First of all, the examples of Cuba and Israel, where George sang with huge success, suggest that the music can be appreciated although those who listen to it do not understand Greek . I am specifically talking about those two countires because I guess the audience in these concerts was either Cuban and Israeli.

Secondly, people in the States although extremely narrow minded in general, are willing to tyr new things in music. Think of how succesful Desert Rose was and Sting had to try hard to convince the record companies to adopt the song. My personal experience with Americans is that they seem ready to appreciate the sound of Greek music. And what surprised me was that they are reacting in an identical way when they listen to , say, Una Moneda Le Di, or to Ekso Vrexei. My idea was that the music is sufficient to them and able to make them start being interested in the lyrics.

The point is that, the choices so far are apparently correct. What I am saying is that there MAY be room to introduce this treasure we have here to the rest of the world. Because it is a treasure.

Thanks again

Soc

PS: I 've listened to George singing also in Hebreu (most of us have), but also in English, with a surprisingly good accent. In 1982 in theatre Tenta he was singing with Haris Alexiou. He sang "Listen to the rain"  and she sang "When a man loves a woman". One of the most beautiful moments in a concert. The search for the tape continues in my shoe boxes. And we would have listen to him singing in Arabic ( I guess) the day before yesterday but he denied Sting's offer to sing "Desert Rose" because they hadn't practiced on it.

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soc

Just a correction on your part. The concert at "Tenta" with Alexiou was in 1984. This was the first time that I had the greatest experience of my life...to attend a Dalaras concert! (I not only attended these concerts every 2nd night but also got to meet Dalaras personally; talking with him and receiving his guitar pick as a keepsake...for the very first time). In total...I saw the "Tenta" program 12 times.

Hearing Dalaras sing, "Listen to the Rain" was totally awesome/amazing!! He just brought the house down with his version of it! (Minos Records made the "biggest" mistake ever by NOT releasing this concert on record)! Every song at that concert was BEAUTIFUL...especially when Dalaras and Alexiou sang together!! (This still is my favorite concert that I have attended of Dalaras's...and to this day...I have seen him in concert over 24 times)!

Dalaras eventually will release an ALL English CD! (NOT soon enough for me though)! He needs to find the "perfect" songs for himself first and when he does, he will release it...because Dalaras is "Mr. Perfectionist"!

soc, F.Y.I. I have the "Tenta" concert on video...plus another 30 plus concert videos!

(Edited by Chris Apostolakis at 8:56 pm on July 14, 2001)

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I just read the dicussion about singing greek music in different languages. I don't know if someone saw the concert in Delphi, Dalaras and Joceline Smith. She was singing Theodorakis in English. For what? She's a great singer with a great voice and has charisma! But the songs of Theodorakis loose, when you hear them in English. I'm German, my Greek is only little, but if I'm really interested in the lyrics, I take the dictionary and try to translate! And of course slowly slowly we get english translations. That's enough, I don't need to hear them in English.

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To tell the truth, I'm not used to these forums! Who gave me the German Flag???? I didn't choose it.

And to start where I finished, I want to hear Dalaras singing in Greek. Please never in German!!! When he's greeting the audience with kalispera, guten Abend, that's enough!!

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Anna, I agree absolutely with you and you made me laugh by your statement: "When he's greeting the audience with kalispera, guten Abend, that's enough!!" - Praegnanter kann man's nicht ausdruecken :laugh:.

Anyway, at least up to now, with Dalaras this problem does not exist (that he sings for example authentic Latinamerican songs in the original language to my mind is of course completely o.k.).  And I hope that Chris Apostolakis' prophecy about an all English CD of Dalaras will never come true :rolleyes: .  

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Michael, when Dalaras released his LATIN record with 11 songs in Spanish...what did you think about it?

Dalaras is an entertainer...that will "NOT" put any limits on his career! He will do what he feels is "right" for himself and for his career and if that includes an ALL English CD...he will release one!

Dalaras is on a musical path and he follows that road! (No matter where it takes his career)! He has goals and accompishments still awaiting him.

He is still a young man and has a long career in front of himself still...that will take him to even GREATER heights!

I do believe the next step for Dalaras NOW is the release of an ALL English CD! (You would be amazed...if you heared Dalaras sing in English)!

Just remember; Dalaras has never been a follower...he is a "Leader" and is not afraid of taking chances! He strives to be and do the best he can (in everything he does) because he is a..."PERFECTIONIST"!!

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Anna, since I began collecting Dalaras videos in 1984; I have only ONCE made copies and offered my "entire" collection to one person so far...in 17 years!

It is time conmsuming and with the differences of video systems (playback) from North American to European; that I cannot offer you any copies!

I'm sorry!  

(Edited by Chris Apostolakis at 5:12 am on July 15, 2001)

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Chris, i dont know who the lucky guy is who was the beneficiary of the 35 rare Dalaras videos but i bet he is really enjoying them....OOHH YEAHH!!!! Im watching video #17 as we speak..he,he,he

Thanks again Chris, the videos have been a great addition to my "DALARAS MUSIUM"..They are sitting next to the rare pictures,posters,backstage passes and guitars.....

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Sarantis, I did NOT mention anywhere that it was a "guy" that i sent copies of my entire Dalaras video collection too! hehehe (So, what is video #17...that you are watching)?

Enjoy your "Dalaras" weekend!

Hristaki

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Some reflections concerning Chris' opinions about the possible release of an all English CD by Dalaras:

1. My philosophy is very simple (and old-fashioned in times of "world-music" and globalization, I know):

I love Dalaras' voice IN COMBINATION with the type of music he had become popular with (let's call it: the "typical greek" song type "laiko" ). If this second element vanishes my appreciation for hearing Dalaras is reduced too (unless Dalaras would replace the "laiko" by a type of music I could like and love even more - but that is NOT the case, neither by "Latin" nor by "Granada" or "Con te Partiro" nor by rock a la Pyx Lax nor by "balkan sound" a la Bregovic etc.).

2. The "experiments" may happen (it is of interest to hear them) but they should be the exception. Unfortunately in case of Dalaras in the meantime they became the rule - the exception has become to hear him with a genuine "laiko" song!

Three wonderful songs with Dalaras - composed by Stavros Kougioumtzis - are "hidden" as a "participation" of Dalaras on a CD which is not his own ("Evrexe o kosmos" ). And instead of presenting them on his own double CD (with 28 songs!) he lets us hear pieces like the duet with Sting or some "greek" songs which have to do nothing any more with authentic greek music. - Result: All people listen to and comment "Mad about you" but only a few know the three songs by Kougioumtzis.

3. From the above results my answer concerning your question about "Latin":

Surely the album contains some beautiful songs ( I mean the authentic ones) and the voice of Dalaras is - as usually - wonderful. But 24 songs "Latin" is too much. It was a waste of time and material he could have used for producing something other. Let's say 3, 4 or 5 authentic "latin" songs would be enough. Concerning the (12!) "greek latin songs" on this production anyway I do not understand why Dalaras decided to record this type of music.

4. And at last a question to you, Chris: Why should sing Dalaras just in English? Why not for example in Turkish or Arabic [something I would like very much to hear from him] or Russian or German, ... ? (And of course I do not mean one or two songs but a whole CD.)

What else could be the aim of such a decision (to sing in English) than trying to attract listeners who would not hear him otherwise? But then we do not speak any longer about culture but only about marketing and selling a product.

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I have to agree with Michael. For me, it is also the combination of voice and music that is "the thing". O f course it is good to expriment with different kinds of musics, but to me it seems a bit that Dlaras has got caught in the "not new= not good"- loop that has destroyd so many artists before him. Surely, there must exist old style songs that still are interesting to record (like probably the above hidden songs that I have not heard), but is not recorded since "it has been done before".  It is never a good idea to let novelties replace quality.

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Micheal, after reading your previous letter directed to Chris ,i wanted to respond.I understand your confusion with why Dalaras does what he does with other styles of music.I think you called it "experiments",marketing and sort of made it sound like he is out to just sell.Speaking with a little bit of experience having been a huge dalaras fan since early 80's and having had the great pleasure and honor of meeting and spending time with Dalaras.In fact i have spent many hours speaking with Dalaras and we spoke about music among other things.I have met other artists as well but i have never met anyone as intelligent and as knowledgeable about music as Dalaras..He is as passionate about music today as he was the day he started.Dalaras does what he does because he is passionate about it.He does not merely experiment or think about selling albums.If he did he would not have risked his career by trying Latin music,classical music and other forms or music he loves.He does things because he loves it and wants to share his passion with other music fans.If Dalaras wanted to sell out he could have continued to simply produce mindless albums full of Laiko music.Some would be good some would be crap.It would sell thousands of copies, but would tire us.Instead he takes us on different journeys that also keeps us and himself thinking and stimulated about music.. For example he introduced to us PIx Lax, an incredible band in my view.The remind me of Neil young and Bob Dylon.It was genious to do an album with them .I loved the music and sounds.Dalaras did this not to sell albums but becase he loves the music as well...I know with Dalaras "Its always about the music".....Being a Dalaras fans sometimes takes work.You must think about what it is Dalaras is doing and why.I know that Dalaras does not do things just because it would be a great marketing idea.I personally dont think Dalaras will do and all english CD..He may do another few songs with english but i dont think he will do an entire CD in English.I may be wrong but i dont think he will..

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Yes, it's espensive to be Dalaras'fan! Of course you have to buy cd with 'only' 3 songs of him to find the hidden treasures. I bought the Tsachnis douple cd 'Paisondas me dio orxistres'. It has 2 songs of Dalaras. But the 'balamos' is extremely good. So I'm glad I have it!!! And my first impression of the Koujoumtzis cd 'Evrexe o kosmos' was, and still is, the music reminds me a lot to french music.I would never say this is typical greek music.

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Anna, try the early Kougioumtzis CD's..Those are my favorites...Being a Dalaras fan does not come cheap.Between CD's ,albums,guitars,videos,memorabilia,i probably have ฟ,000 tied up...But its worth every penny!!!! well, its time to get back to the Dalaras video weekend marathon....

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Saranti, thank you for your very interesting reply. First of all I must assure you that you can feel very lucky that you know Dalaras personally and that you had the possibility to speak with him. I hope that you will tell us often here in the Club about him and about the discussions with him. That would be a fantastic possibility for people like me (who only know "the voice Dalaras" ) to learn also something about his personality.

Of course I have no reason to doubt when you write that he "does things because he loves it and wants to share his passion with other music fans". But what's the conclusion of this? That obviously he does not like any longer the typical Greek "laiko" song - at least not so much that he would publish a CD with such songs.

In my mind I have often made the following statistics. It shows how much Dalaras ignored some of the best Greek composers (or these composers Dalaras - but I do not think so ;) ). He sings more than 30 years but look how rare or even non-existent are certain cooperations (I think the following numbers are correct):

- with Giannis Spanos: 4 songs

- with Andonis Vardis: 5 songs

- with Takis Soukas: No song (only cooperation with him as player of instruments)

- with Thanasis Polykandriotis: No song

- with Takis Mousafiris: No song

- with Marios Tokas: No song

At the same time we have "Latin", "Missa Criolla", Sting, Pyx Lax, Machairitsas etc.etc. O.K. - may be that Dalaras is more passionate about these types of music than of the ones composed by the musicians mentioned above. I cannot influence it but I regret very much about Dalaras' clear distance and denial of such magnificent composers and their types of music.

You say: "Instead he takes us on different journeys that also keeps us and himself thinking and stimulated about music."

But you can put it also the other way around: "He takes us on different journeys, removing us more and more from what many people (and he for himself I think) had loved such a long time. We follow him readily, wherever he leads us and forget to think about the substance and the quality of the 'place' (= the songs) he is showing us."

As you mentioned Pyx Lax, let me repeat as example what I have written in another posting about the song "Enas kompos i xara mou". Listen to the original version and then to the version arranged by Pyx Lax. For me the second one means the destruction of this wonderful song. Can this version really be the result of passion about music?

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Michael, wasn't the cd 'Foni Patridas' together with Mariou Tokas?

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Anna and Xenos - you are both completely right. I remembered it just a few seconds ago when I started my computer and before reading your postings!

Anyway, it does not change my conclusion. 4 songs on a CD almost unknown! (I know about its existence only by Nikolas' excellent website and have never heard any song of it.) It's one of the few CDs of Dalaras I do not possess because I could not find it anywhere. (If someone could tell me where to get it I would be thankful.)

Anna, concerning your comment about the CD "Evrexe o kosmos": It's funny - another person (Austrian, with no connection to Greek music) also told me that the songs remind him French music ;).

Maybe that the orchestration (which I am not totally satisfied with) contributes to this impression.

I would call the CD a "typical Kougioumtzis". (You will see [= hear] when you listen to older compositions by him.)

And one question, Anna: For example "Avtos o kosmos" (one of the three songs with Dalaras) indeed reminds you French music ????

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I am very happy that one post started such an interesting and civilized discussion. I have a simple question seemingly unrelated to the above but it trully answers many of the issues addressed.

What is the reason that Geroge Dalaras is continuously considered the best greek musician (we have to respect his opinion about what he is, singer or musician that is), ans has kept his fans while creating new ones, after 34 years?  Why did not George Dalaras disapear like some others (Parios, Dionisiou, Mitsias, Glikeria, Galani etc). I don't mean any disrespect for those singers but you have to admit that their evlution is stalled while George's path is going up and up and will continue this way.

Soc

PS. Chris, I 'll try to send you a message tomorrow in your inbox.

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Michael, after reading your posts, I feel I must address some of your issues!

Dalaras does what he does because he has a passion and love for it! Releasing the Latin record was something that he felt strongly about doing! It was in "his" program to do that record at that time...just as the records about Cyprus were at that time!

Your statements about the Latin record in both Latin and Greek (being a "waste" of time) shows me that you do NOT appreciate music to it's full extent (and this included other Dalaras releases that you have voiced your negative opinion on)! With any NEW project that Dalaras undertakes; you must have an open mind and appreciate what he is bringing to you...for it is outta "love" that he recorded it!

Now, as for the English CD...as I stated earlier, if Dalaras finds enough material to release such a record, he will do so! He is NOT one that limits himself to only Greek music! (He is willing to take on a new project and see it to the end). If he ever had a chance to record songs in Turkish, Arabic, Russian or German and knew that he could accomplish it; I do believe that he would!

Michael, what entertainer in their "right" mind wouldn't want GREATER exposure and listeners?! With the "talents" of Dalaras' why should he be restricted to only Greece?!

Dalaras does concerts around the world for only one reason and that's to bring the music of Greece to a NEWER generation of Greeks; the new ones! (He does NOT want them to forget their culture and heritage)! He does NOT do these concerts, to "build" on his NEST EGG for the future...as Dalaras already is "well off"!

Dalaras is very proud of his "roots" and his culture/heritage! He is the only Greek singer that travels so much, internationlly; promoting Greece! (Name me another singer that has toured the world as Dalaras has and also has done benefits that relate to Greece)?

EMI being with Minos now, can market Dalaras greater; by taking his recordings to "unknown" Countries!  (In North Ameria...EMI has already released about 4 CD's)!

(Edited by Chris Apostolakis at 2:48 am on July 16, 2001)

(Edited by Chris Apostolakis at 3:16 am on July 16, 2001)

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