Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Geeske, when I read Soc's explanation concerning the meaning of the term "laiko" I did not intend to respond in order to avoid to start a perhaps too theoretical discussion, too far away from the topic "Dalaras". But your recent posting shows me that it is necessary to say at least a few words against Soc's statement: He gave us a (let's say) "sociological" and "linguistic" definition of the term "laiko song" which is not exact (or adequate) when you use the term in the sense it has in the field of Greek music. "Laiko" song ("Laiko" music) means a SPECIAL type of GREEK popular music. OF COURSE it is the music where the bouzouki and the baglamas (and sometimes also the accordeon etc.) dominate! And the second characteristic element is that "laiko" is composed usually (not always) in some specific types of Greek or "oriental" rhythms (like zeimbekiko, chasapiko or tsifteteli). "Laiko" is the type of popular Greek music which was heard most of all for many centuries (let's say - roughly from the 50ies to the late 80ies). Perhaps you could say (maybe others will disagree) that the "laiko" developed from the Rebetiko. Of course by the time developed very different types of "laiko": Most of the greatest hits of Theodorakis also belong to the category "laiko" as (almost all, I would say) the songs of Kougioumtzis or Nikolopoulos but also some typical commercial songs of the last years like for example the famous "O aitos" with Notis Sfakianakis. On Dalaras' CD "I asfaltos pou trexei" I would call "laika" songs (laiko = singular / laika = plural) for example: "Me tis kardias ton xtypo", "Ta fantasmata", "Akraia symptomata", "I alli mou zoi" and some others. (Sorry, at the moment I cannot listen to the CD neither have I all the songs in my mind.) Certain instruments and usually (not always) certain rhythms (and perhaps in many cases a certain style of the lyrics) - these are to my mind the characteristics of "laiko". This description may be a little simple (and whoever thinks that I am wrong with my explanation may respond). But anyway I think that my description is closer to reality of greek music than Soc's one. Soc, please do not forget that there are (for example) also the "dimotika" songs. Your description would also fit to this - completely different - type of Greek "popular/folk" music. And I think you know very well too that a song like "Una Moneda le Di" of course never can be a laiko song in the sense this term has in Greek music!! PS: Sorry, Geeske, if I worried you now - but I think that this statement was necessary . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Oh dear, Michael, I was afraid that post of mine would provoke you - sorry! This must be costing you lots of time. And I'm worse than worried - I'm asking for more I did realize, you know, that Soc was not giving a musicological definition Thank you for expanding on it! Do you read minds, btw ? You have just answered, before I even asked it, my question about how deeply the accordion belongs to the Greek tradition. (I love accordion but it has been too often misused) Anyway, since you've started, I shall take advandage and ask... 1. can you give me a few hints on the difference between 'laika' and 'dimotika' - or is that, after all, the same difference as between 'folk' and 'pop' ? 2. why is this post the first where Theodorakis is named among the good Greek composers? Don't you people like him? (One of my first Dalaras favourites, 'Agapi' (from 'Radar'), is his) And mind, I'm after knowledge, not controversy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Chris,yes you are invited to come and watch any of the vidoes of Dalaras...But you must know the lyrics of all the songs!!! I know you already do..Chris every time i listen to Aspro Peristeri,it reminds me of you..I remeber you telling me it was one of your favorites.What a great song.I hope Dalaras plays it in the Saratoga,New York concert on August 18..I cant wait to see and speak with him again.As i listen to the new CD,E asfalto to trexi,i love different songs more and more.It really is a great CD...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Geeske, of course your posting did not provoke me at all . Only it showed me that it was necessary to clarify some things about the term "laiko" in order to avoid misunderstandings. Concerning the accordeon, I fully agreee with you: It has been too often misused (in western music) but in Greek songs to my mind it sounds really fantastic. (You can find two or three such songs even on the CD "I asfaltos pou trexei".) Concerning "dimotika": I know that Nikolas is not only an expert about Dalaras but also about "dimotika" songs and that he likes this type of music very much. So it is his part (or that of any other person by far more competent than me) to tell you about it. (Perhaps in a new thread, as it seems to me to be a quite different matter from the things discussed in this thread until now?) Concerning Theodorakis: I for myself in other postings referred to some of my favourite Greek composers Dalaras did not cooperate with at all (or only very little). With Theodorakis he had a number of cooperations. Moreover I think there is no reason to worry that Theodorakis' popularity will vanish . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Geeske, you see? We talk about different topics in different sections of the club. That's why I was asking for a chat room. I will not enter the discussion about laiko vs pop or folk. The points were made. And everybody is allowed to draw his/her own conclusions. Besides, this is music we are talking about. And we are allowed to like evrything we want and to consider as good or bad music anything we want. If there were restrictions on that I would be in prison for making everybody around me listen to Dalaras. I was so glad to find out that you loved "Agapi", one of my favorite songs in both versions (studio and live). If you need a translation of the lyrics, let me know. Sarantis and Chris, I am about to call for tickets. If you go, we could meet if that's ok with you. And Michael, I would be the last person in the world to disaprove the search for something new. When tradition becomes a barrier I am out of there. I will stay with my opinion that "laiko tragoudi" is created everyday some times in a tastefull way but most of them in a disapointing way. And you know what? If a music expert comes to me and says that what George Dalaras does today has nothing to do with "laiko", I will say: Fine, who cares. Do I like it? Yes!! Does his voice still make my heart race? Yes!! So, who needs his songs to be "laika" As long as I like his choices I don't care. If he decides to read the phonebook and make a cd out of it, and if that bores me (which frankly I doubt), maybe I will reconsider. But after being actively involved with his music for 20 years (my mother would argue that it's 27 because when I was 3 I was singing "To poukamiso to thalassi" without knowing who Dalaras is), I am fine. And by the way as I write this message and listen to a greek radio station over the Internet, George Dalaras is singing "San palio cinema", apo to Seirio. Once again I couldn't keep it short. Sorry!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Soc, you write "So, who needs his songs to be 'laika' As long as I like his choices I don't care." Of course this is a point of view and a matter of taste one has to respect. But anway we should say: "Dalaras sings Greek 'laika' and other types of music too." Otherwise we confuse people who are not so familiar with Greek music and/or Dalaras' history. That was the reason for my statement. Concerning a translation of "Agapi" there are surely more persons who would like to read it (me for example ). So please: If you really decide to make the translation (of this song or any other one) please send it to Nikolas so that he can place it on this website. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post soc, you are so completely right! I do NOT care what Dalaras records! (As I know he will NOT steer us down the WRONG road...ever)! Dalaras is his BEST or should I say his WORSE critic and he knows what songs "suit" him and what doesn't! (He will only record songs that either bring him much PASSION or he wants to present them in a "NEW" light)! Dalaras has yet to release a song that I can honestly say I have "HATED"! (It might not have been to MY Dalaras "standards" at that time, but I have gone back to "rediscover" it and found that I could appreciate it, the 2nd time around)! Now as for releasing a CD of phone listings...I would agree with you, too, just to hear Dalaras' "speaking" voice. LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Michael, Dalaras' choices in music...are HIS choices! (He is the singer...we are his fans)! If there are any songs that you did NOT appreciate at that time...go back and give them a 2nd listening to...your views of them MIGHT change! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Chris, you write: "Dalaras' choices in music...are HIS choices! (He is the singer...we are his fans)!" Yes, and it is MY choice and YOUR choice what we like to hear and what not. (Anyway I would say that I like and I love to hear 75 or 80 or 85 % of what Dalaras has ever recorded.) I am not obliged to appreciate any song or interpretation only because it is interpreted by a certain artist. And don't forget one thing: WE - the listeners, the public, the fans - are the people who buy his (or any other artist's) records and go to his (or any other artist's) concerts. WE are the people who are the recipients of an artist's work. So it is our right to decide if we like or dislike some production, some choice, some interpretation etc.etc. YOU (with your own taste) should be the highest instance for deciding what you appreciate and what not. I think most of us here in this Club are deeply fascinated and impressed by Dalaras, his voice and his songs (me too of course). And in a certain way I understand your huge enthusiasm for Dalaras. But please try to stay nevertheless an autonomous person - with your own opinions and your own taste. Concerning a 2nd (3rd, 4th ...) listening: Of course in many cases this is really a good and necessary way to get familiar with a certain song and to start to like it. But on the other hand there are some songs (not only in the case of Dalaras of course) in which a repeated listening does not help. (I think that you will have made the same experience - at least with artists others than Dalaras .) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Soc and Chris - I need to agree with you about the phone listings - Dalaras does indeed have the most wonderful speaking voice - different than the singing voice and yet the same... I wish they would leave more of the spoken bits on the live records. About what's laiko and dimothiko and what not, let's take it to a new thread, OK? Leave for this one the discussion on who likes what best and why, and take the matter of which is which to the other. Soc, I can recite 'Agapi' to you from memory in four languages including Greek... but IF you would really like to do me a BIG favour you could have a go at Nychterida. I can puzzle out about half of it and that is SO frustrating! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post OK,OK guys ,stop beating a dead subject,lets move on to something more fun to talk about on Dalaras.I have heard you guys analize to death ,the subject of "Liako","rembetiko",new songs ,old songs,yata,yata,yata...By the way about Dalarases voice.If any of you have talked with Dalaras "and i have" ,(Chris Apostolakis you have also),you would know that Dalarases speaking voice is very scratcy and sometimes froggy or horse.But when he gets on stage in front of the microphone it is amazing what an incredible voice he has.I have always thought that Dalaras early on when he was 18-20's years old ,his voice was good but not exceptional.He had an acceptable voice...Now, however he is amazing.His voice live is incredible...C.D.'s and albums cannot capture this mans voice.Like a fine wine it gets better.I watch the early vidoes and then the later ones and it proves how good his voice has gotten over the years.I have another great story about Parios.Since ,i have helped with greek concert promotions in the last few years i have had the chance to meet and spend time with several artist .None by the way as nice and as curtious and proffessional as Dalaras.Anyway, when Parios came to town,i spend a few Days with him.Well his speaking voice was very low,scratchy,grizly.I thought to myself,how is this man going to sing the next night.Well sure enough its show time and he comes out and sings amazingly.I was amazed by his range.In fact he too like Dalaras sings better now than when he was young...So, im not sure why this happens that some singers sing better in there 40's and 50's than they did when they were young.Maybe they developed there voiced and learned how to sing.It might be that early on they were just thrown into the fire and just got out and sang.Perhaps thru the years they took voice lessons and learned to take full advantage of there voice.Well, thats my opinoin.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Michael, people that come on here (Dalaras Club) and even visit this web site are YES...Dalaras fans! We appreciate Dalaras; his voice, his songs, etc etc. (We are a dedicated and loyal breed)! We are the ones that can't wait for the release of his next CD; to hear news of a concert tour; or to hear of ANY news that concerns Dalaras. (For us FANATICS it is a "HIGH")! I have travelled from Canada to both the U.S.A. and even Greece; to attend a Dalaras concert. When Dalaras does his North American Tours, I attend as many as I possibly can. (Toronto, Montreal and even New York). I do NOT expect anything back from Dalaras! I accept his new CD's with open arms. I attend his concerts and witness his love and passion for the Greek song and for Greece. (At the end of the concert...I leave with a little bit of Dalaras; his love)! I CANNOT brain wash you to like every song that Dalaras records! I CANNOT force you to attend his concerts! But... DON'T come on here either and tell us that the Latin record was a "waste" of time...you only liked 2-3 songs on the CD: H Asfaltos Pou Trehi or any other NEGATIVE feedback about Dalaras' career; because that only cause a heated situation to develop and negative feedback to come your way! Just remember...you are only 1 fan...we are millions! Dalaras does not need ME or YOU to buy his CD's or attend his concerts. (He has his followers, already...in Greece)! (Edited by Chris Apostolakis at 4:58 am on July 18, 2001) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Very interesting what you are telling us, Dalarikos. I will say my own (almost identical) impressions in a new thread ("The speaking voice of Dalaras" ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 17, 2001 · Report post Chris, only now I read your posting. Your are getting a little bit too fanatic now and I would strongly recommend you to calm down (at least when you talk directly to me)!! And most of all: Don't try to instruct me which opinions I am allowed to post here!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Guys, we don't need this. Please. Note on Dalaras' speaking voice. I direct you to the song "Pou na 'sai tora, Anna" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Geeske, it will be my pleasure. Tomorrow morning. My time... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Chris ,Michael.....lets not let this get ugly.....Chris ,thanks for defending our man"Dalaras"...All you guys who are writing about Dalarases voice on certain songs.You cannot appreciate him unless you have heard him live.By the way,if you have not bought the live concert from the Meadowlands,New Jersey,"Dalaras sings for Cyprus"....I was just watching this video(for the thousandth time).Ity is amazing..He really puts on a great show and his voice is strong on this show..Just fro the record ,Dalaras is using a Beautiful Yamaha APX20D sunburts guitar and for the first time a John Buscarino custom built nylon classical guitar.....Yes i have both of those guitars as well in my collection...Dalaras uses the Buscarino classical exclusively on stage now for the songs that require nylon string..Probably more information than you guys want but hey, im here to give you guys exclusive meaningless details.I have a million more useless details...he,he,he...just ask Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Michael, may I as you a question? Where are you from and are you of greek descent? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Michael, may I as you a question? Where are you from and are you of Greek descent? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Sarantis, next time your watching the Meadowlands video...try and find me in it! LOL Sorry...about the "flood" with my above post to Michael and for getting all "HEATED" up in this topic with Michael!! I apologize to ALL and to Michael as well!!!!! (Edited by Chris Apostolakis at 6:20 am on July 18, 2001) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Chris it will be hard to find you in the video since i have never seen you.he,he,he...Chris,i'll tell you afunny story about that video.Everytime i watch it there is a some guy who is dancing during the segment where Glikeria is on stage.Well there is this cheezy mustlebound greek in a tight t-shirt who jumps into the dancing and starts doing this funny leg kick that just has me on the floor laughing.Im so glad Dalaras started doing his shows in theaters and keeping the cheezballs from dancing....Anyway,ill keep an eye out for you in the video...Hey ,your not the guy dancing are you?he,he,he Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Sarantis, and what would you say if it was ME?! LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post O.K., Chris, let us forget your recent "flood". Concerning your question where I am from and if I am of Greek descent: No Greek descent, I am Austrian and also living there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post I really feel I ought to apologize too for asking stoopid questions and drawing people out on dangerous subjects. "Inside every fan there is a critic struggling to get out, and inside every critic there is a fan struggling to get out" (originally about SF but quite applicable here). Just so long as we can keep both the fan and the critic within bounds... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 18, 2001 · Report post Soc, about "Pou na 'sai tora, Anna" - yes that's what I meant! It is so wonderful! That whole CD took me utterly by surprise. I had bought it blind, not knowing who Bregovic was or anything, and without hearing it first which (for financial reasons) I normally never ever do... A case of pure Dalaras starvation !! Too happy to find anything at all with his voice on it. So I played it and I couldn't even think, only listen and listen and listen! You should have seen my face when "Me lene Popi" started - I was flabbergasted... turned to stone... total disbelief... Loved it though. Sarantis, you are goldmine and I dig you so tell me, do you know whether Dalaras plays flamenco guitar as well? (meaning the style as well as the instrument). The authentic flamenco is something so weird and special... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
