People who do not know Dalaras

[franz averstegge 5]

Your last posts gave me so much,Sarantiis, thank you so much.   Franz

[Micki 1]

Yes, thank you, Sarantii,

it makes me respect Dalaras even more.

Micki

[Michael 2]

Sorry, but I cannot join the general enthusiasm for Sarantis' statements. I must apologize that I need more than a few lines in order to explain why:

1. First we have Sarantis' descriptions about his personal contacts with Dalaras and he tells us that Dalaras is a simple, modest man etc. O.k. Most of us (I think) did never have the possibilty for a similar approach to the artist (we know him only by concerts, CDs, nespapers etc.). So let's assume that Sarantis' evaluations are right.

2. Dalaras' humanitarian activities (his activities for Cyprus etc.): I think both sides - the critics of Dalaras and his supporters - should take a more neutral position in this matter. Even if you know a person very well (better than we [even Sarantis] know Dalaras), it is in many cases very difficult to decide what the motives of this person are to do (or not to do) something: Is it conviction or is it simply a method to get more popularity and publicity or is it something else ...? Who can decide? And I think in many cases it will be a combination of different motives (selfish and non selfish ones) why (famous) people stand up for something.

But whatever Dalaras' motives may be. I must admit that for me his acitivities are nothing extraordinary. Today the extraordinary would be the opposite: That a famous artist does NOT support any humanitarian, philanthropic, cultural etc. project. There were (and there are) a lot of concerts in many parts of the world in support of the victims of Aids, in support of starving children in the third world, in support of the victims of terrorism in country A or country B etc.etc. We can see such activities almost every day. And not only from singers: Brigitte Bardot struggles for the protection of animals, Lady Diana struggled against the bombshells, an American actor (Richard Gere?) supports the matter of Tibet and the Dalai Lama, others support Amnesty International (one of them also Dalaras, as far as I know) or Greenpeace or something else. So please can anyone tell my why Dalaras' support for the matter of Cyprus should be something so special or extraordinary? I mean, something that makes Dalaras different from all the persons I mentioned? I cannot see it!

3. Finally we have the opinion of Sarantis - and other listeners too - that Dalaras' repertoire is always (or at least: in most of the cases) excellent, that he is the leading person in the development of Greek music, that to him we owe the opening to new musical horizons in general etc.etc.

To my mind such evaluations are always quite subjective. Many people may have this opinion about Dalaras. Other people will have a different point of view. (I for myself belong more to the second group.) But that some people have a critical position towards Dalaras' musical activities does not automatically mean that they have no feeling for music or that they are "simple minded" (as Sarantis says). Always in such discussions one can find the contrasting of Dalaras on the one hand and singers like Pantazis, Vissi, Sfakianakis etc. on the other hand. This contrasting is problematic for two reasons:

a) I agree in general with Sarantis that (today) the singers mentioned by him produce most of the time something like "disco beat" which I also do not really like (and which in fact will be "consumed" in many cases by people who are not interested in thinking about what they listen to). But nevertheless for MY ears the listening to Dalaras does not preclude automatically that I listen (in other moments) to Pantazis etc. too. For me to both parts (Dalaras on the one hand and Pantazis, Vissi etc. on the other hand) applies the same: None of them has (any longer) a repertoire that I appreciate and love as a whole. But everywhere I can find in quite rare cases (as exception I would say) very valuable songs that I really like. And this happens to me not only with Dalaras but also for example with Pantazis etc. Disregarding what people think about me, I say clearly that for example the song "Sygxorese me" with Pantazis (CD: "Erxomai", music by Karvelas !!! ) touches me emotionally more than most of the songs of Dalaras on the CD "I asfaltos pou trexei"!! And I think I have a right to think and to feel so without being regarded as an #####.

Everyone who compares Dalaras only with Pantazis, Vissi etc. ignores quite important parts of the Greek music. Because otherwise he would at least consider to compare Dalaras with completely other singers (than Pantazis etc.), as for example Dimitris Mitropanos, Andonis Kalogiannis, Ilias Klonaridis, Leonidas Velis, Manolis Mitsias, Viky Mosholiou etc. Or with singers like Dinos Vrettos or Nikos Speris. Saranti, did you ever hear the only CD that Dinos Vrettos has published (1995)? Do you know that the lyrics for the songs of this CD are written by Manos Elevtheriou (necessary to mention this so that you see that these songs surely have a certain quality)? And if you do not know such productions (and I suppose you do not) you should not speak in such an absolute way about the great quality of Dalaras' repertoire. To my mind, the quality is NOT so great when you compare it with such records. The problem is that today in Greece some of the most valuable composers (+ songwriters) and singers have disappeared, obviously because almost no one is any longer interested in listening to them. And "newcomers" (like Vrettos) who try to make something which continues the quality of past Greek music have no chance to become prominent. (Dalaras unfortunately also prefers to promote other musicians although - to my mind - their quality is by far lower.)  Everyone has of course the right to say that he likes or even loves Dalaras' songs. But he should avoid to compare Dalaras with other musicians if these other musicians are only Pantazis, Vissi etc. Not because Pantazis, Vissi etc. are sooo bad (to my mind at least sometimes they are not - see above), but simply because when evaluating Dalaras, the measure should be other artists (respectively their repertoire). Sarantis writes: "I have tried to listen to the other popular artists and their songs but it leaves me empty and the music is shallow." But that does not automatically mean that only Dalaras makes good music. There are also other - unfortunately not popular - Greek artists whose work (in my opinion) surely is NOT shallow and can compete in every respect with Dalaras' repertoire of the last years.

And concerning Dalaras' repertoire, it seems to me that Sarantis himself says the truth when he writes: "If Dalaras had just stayed playing laiko music throughout his career,he may not have been around today." Or to say it in other words: To stay a popular singer in Greece with "laiko" (= let's say that's the style of Greek music with which Dalaras started his career and which he interpreted - in different versions - for about 20 or 25 years) is very difficult today, and to make international career with this type of music is impossible. So in order to achieve both aims (to stay a star in Greece and to start an international career too) Dalaras had to do something. And this "something" are the well known experiments (from Latinamerican music until Greek music with symphonic orchestras or balalaikas) and the various types of (national and international) cooperations (Pyx Lax, Marios Fragkoulis, Bregovic, Sting etc.). And Dalaras did it very clever (as we see by his wide popularity and the enthusiasm of his fans). But obiously no one of those people who appreciate this way of Dalaras is thinking about the "price" he has (and we have) to pay for it: The (almost complete) loss of the type of music which made Dalaras popular, which was an important part of the Greek culture and which he loved (and perhaps still loves) himself. Or to say it different: Dalaras abandoned his roots and made his (important) contribution that Greek music lost it's identity. (Moreover it is Dalaras' wonderful voice itself which would deserve better "material" [= songs] than most of the one he chooses during the last years.)

And something else: Many of his admirers say that these experiments, cooperations etc. are a specific phenomenon of Dalaras. I do not think so. May be that in this respect he is the leading personality in Greece; but with his activities he simply follows a tendency we can find nearly worldwide: The creation of "World music" / "Ethnic" (in combination with the so called "crossover"). There were cooperations of Indian musicians with jazz musicians (I do not remember the names), Domingo, Carreras and Pavarotti started to sing Christmas Carols, Algerian musicians mixed their traditional music with pop (the so called "Rai"), Madredeus (singer from Portugal) tries to combine the traditional "Fado"-song with modern elements etc.etc. In the person of Dalaras we have the Greek version of "Ethnic" (+ "crossover"): A little bit (western) pop-rock (Sting etc.), a little bit modernized "Balcan sound" (Bregovic), a big portion "latin", a little bit western European "folclor", of course also in a "modernized" version (for example "Krymmena kleidia", a french traditional song), a big portion of Greek modern "quality" music (Pyx Lax, Maxairitsas etc.) and a very small portion of the characteristic Greek laiko. It is the right of everyone to appreciate such mixtures (which seems to me something like the musical aspect of globalization). But it is also the right of everyone to criticize such developments (for a number of reasons) and to mention that Dalaras' activities in this respect are nothing especially extraordinary.

[Niki 0]

Oh Michael...

  For the moment I just want to make two comments.

 Firstly about Cyprus. You say :"I think both sides - the critics of Dalaras and his supporters - should take a more neutral position in this matter. Even if you know a person very well (better than we [even Sarantis] know Dalaras), it is in many cases very difficult to decide what the motives of this person are to do (or not to do) something: Is it conviction or is it simply a method to get more popularity and publicity or is it something else ...? Who can decide? And I think in many cases it will be a combination of different motives (selfish and non selfish ones) why (famous) people stand up for something.

Well you cannot be newtral on this matter. Cyprus is the major problem this nation has! And Dalaras is the one who brough it up, in a period that none of us cared! We were all sitting and enjoying ourselves (I'm speaking for the Greeks), having forgotten what's going on in Cyprus and most important WHY we came to this situation... Dalaras made us all remember it again! I'm not saying that Dalaras is the only one that struggles fot it. But with his work, this matter became known not only to us but also to foreighners. Of course this does not solve the problem. It takes more than concerts. But I don't think that there is something more Dalaras could do. He helps the way he can. The rest is politicians and diplomats' job. You speak about never knowing someone's motives especially when you have never meet him. Let me add that psycologie has prooved that in many cases you never know your own motives. But that doen't mean anything! I've said I believe in Dalaras as a person. So for me there is no question of motives. I believe what he says. That he did it because he felt that what is going on is unfair. Because he felt that something had to be done. Because he couldn't stand all the indifference! But for those who doubt, if they examine it more carefully they'll see that in our case it could not have been the motive of becoming popular because he already was popular and what he gained from all this thing was only critisism... because people cannot accept that someone will bother and care for something that themselves didn't care at all! Besides Dalaras from the early years of his carrier has shown an interest for such matters. Remember that some of his first songs speak for freedom and hope and the need to fight injustice.

 You are asking: "So please can anyone tell my why Dalaras' support for the matter of Cyprus should be something so special or extraordinary? I mean, something that makes Dalaras different from all the persons I mentioned? I cannot see it!" Well, I think I've answered this, but I'll make it more clear. It is something special because he brough up a "well burried" national matter! Because he is a Greek and he cared about other Greeks when most of Greeks cared only for their homes, their cars and how they will gain more and they would steal without being caught! Because he spends time and money and personnal labor for this. Yes, all those who do humanitarian activities are to be mentioned. And Dalaras does charity activities as well. But what makes him special is that he stood up and bent over a matter that most politicians would rather he hadn't touch!

  And secondly, noone said that only Dalaras makes experiments. Of course there are others, but when you are talking about him you have to mention it as well. And in my opinion he has never abandoned laiko. He still loves it. He has said recently that rembetica are his favourite. And certainly he didn't do so to start an international carrier. All over the world it's greek music that he plays and greek laika songs have a special place in his concerts. And I don't think that Dalaras is a "star" in the way this word is used. He doesn't like publicity, he is humble (at least in his concert and his public appearances) and generally he doen't have any of those elements that characterizise stars.

 Well, forgive me for insisting on the Cyprus matter but I couldn't helped it. I was one from those who had no idea and never cared to find out what was going on but now with all these things I recently read, I'm glad someone had the guts to bring it forward. And I wouldn't have read them if it wasn't for Dalaras... I don't mean that now I'm doing something drastic about it, but at least I 've learnt what happened. There are so many Greeks who don't...

[sarantiis 5]

Michael. first of all i am amazed again at how you ramble on endlessly in your letters and at the end of it,you really have no point!!! Its just rambling!!You used to do that before you left the club..And now you are back doing the same thing..Long,long letters with "NO REAL POINT"...I get bored halfway thru your  letter and loose interests..Try to gather your thoughts and compress them in a coherent thought..By the way ,at the end of my letter.It said "these are my opinoins", so they are not up for debate by you or anyone else..They are simply my opinions.You have a right to yours as well,right or wrong,they are your opinoins ,so i will not argue with them...I also thought that you were leaving the club for good as you told us in another long winded letter..I suppose you were not honest about that,so why should we beleave anything else from you,if you cant be honest with us???And by the way Merry Christmas and happy new year.

[Niki 0]

Sarantii, actually it's his second post since then. I don't think it's bad for a person to change his mind on something. I don't really know exactly what happened between you but maybe -since it's Cristmas after all- we could just forget about it and move on...  Right? I think there is room for eveyone here... But then again it's your call... What matters is what you two think... Merry Christmas to all of you!!! And a Happy New Year!!!  

[sarantiis 5]

Niki(SPQR) dont worry, i will loose no sleep over Michael.He just likes to come in every now and then and stir things up.He has a right to his long winded opinions.I will not argue with them .After all not everyone likes Dalaras as we know...This matter is over for me....Niki, thanks for the package(Echo and artist) with the magazize and CD...It has some songs that i have not heard in a long time,i cannot stop playing "mesa sto erimo spitaki" by Stelios Kazadzidis,what a great song....Thanks again NIKI

[Michael 2]

Saranti, for the moment only this comment:

1.

If you are not able (or not willing) to deal with arguments or ideas expressed in more than one or two sentences, that is your problem. I will write my postings in the way I consider good and necessary. Whenever you think that a posting is too difficult (or boaring) for you, you should simply ignore it.

2.

I surely do not owe you any explanation for my decisions to write or not to write in the Club.

[nikolas 86]

First of all, according to my opinion, everyone should be allowed to speak and I don't remember a single case that someone was told to leave the Club, either in public or in private. Also, no public or private invitations are made to anyone, except the 'Invite a friend' feature which is up to anyone to use, for friends that are not aware of this place and would be interested. This is something general and none's own decisions affect it of course. It remains the same.

As for the Cyprus issue, I am quite surprised that we didn't open it until now, I think it is important and standalone, therefore I will open a new topic after this and give some views there.

For the rest. There are two different things here, I think. One is to speak about singers and one is to speak about songs. The first views the whole repertoire of a person and tries to identify and review this person's musical 'whois' and the other approaches each song of any singer seperately, and says that this one is good, this one has good lyrics but er, the music could be better, this one is great but a better singer would give a new dimension to it etc etc etc etc and finally, etc.

What I believe is that Sarantis was speaking about the first thing. And some of us found in his words some of our unexpressed thoughts. Saranti, I would not like to speak on behalf of you, so forgive me if I interpreted you wrong. Anyway. I admit that there are good songs everywhere. But who will deny that certain singers serve certain needs, real or virtual, of the market. Noone. What is bad with that? Nothing, in marketing terms. Our problem probably is that we don't consider music as a market. So, some persons -and not all of their songs- have just nothing to tell us. Fair or not, the result is to dismiss everything they do, because we simply don't accept them in general. Whether it worths to ignore names and view each song seperately or not...I am afraid I don't have a scientific answer but usually, it is difficult to disconnect a song from its performer.

And of course, many singers in Greece have good repertoire. Those mentioned and many others. Dalaras' case is unique and even if several people don't like him -this is most of the time because they find him 'everywhere' where good music is and they can't stand it- his name means singer. Take a Greek on the street and ask him to name a singer. He will 77% name him. (year 2000 statistics). As for us here, we are his 'friends' and we can always be considered subjective. Simply as anyone else of course. I am sorry not to be able to compare Dalaras with Dinos Vrettos or Nikos Speris. As unable I would be to compare Dalaras with Kazantzidis in 1970. And if such names are equally or more important than Dalaras was in 1970 (wasn't he 21 years old?), which I heavily doubt but can't be sure of course, I think I would not have missed them.

Or to say it in other words: To stay a popular singer in Greece with "laiko" (= let's say that's the style of Greek music with which Dalaras started his career and which he interpreted - in different versions - for about 20 or 25 years) is very difficult today, and to make international career with this type of music is impossible. So in order to achieve both aims (to stay a star in Greece and to start an international career too) Dalaras had to do something. And this "something" are the well known experiments (from Latinamerican music until Greek music with symphonic orchestras or balalaikas) and the various types of (national and international) cooperations (Pyx Lax, Marios Fragkoulis, Bregovic, Sting etc.).

This is the one view. It assumes that the singer, Dalaras, does all this to remain popular. The other one is that he does all this because he likes it. He may feel himself as a musician and as such, he keeps his ears and eyes open and when he likes something, he does it and that is something that he has achieved in his career, to do something when he wants it. If he wanted to remain popular, he would not do Latin in 1987, no matter if we like it or not. No matter if it proved popular or not. Experiments with symphonic orchestras don't make him more popular in any way. In fact, most people would prefer him to sing laika and rebetika only. They wanted him there and nowhere else. He probably shaped a different idea about what he could do. If remaining really popular and active for more than 30 years, was so simple, I am sure more singers would be. National cooperations...I would like to remind that he didn't suddenly discover them in order to remain popular. National cooperations are there, from his earliest steps.

As for Dalaras being a piece of greek 'ethnic', I would like to write his answer in a question of similar content in the recent Avlaia. He said after some laugh that: "What do I have to do with this Ethnic? remember, I sang songs of Apostolos Kaldaras in 1971, I don't need any ethnic now!" Not to mention that I also personally don't undertstand this word 'ethnic'. Isn't it a marketing term once again?

As for greek music being in danger and Dalaras' contribution to this by abandoning his roots. Anyone who would watch any of his concerts, would realize the respect Dalaras has for his roots. His roots are an important part of his performances, sometimes the longest. These roots made him popular and he pays it back all the time singing and speaking about them. And also has many other things to propose, some good, some better, some great and some not so good. He follows his taste and instict. Unfortunately, some are waiting in the corner every time. But fortunately, he doesn't pay attention to them. And if respect to his roots means that he has to sing only one type of music for all his life, this means that we would expect him being someone else, different from what we found extraordinary in him and probably just another good singer with good songs.

p.s: In 1975, Dalaras was 26 years old.

[Michael 2]

I refer to Nikolas' statement:

But who will deny that certain singers serve certain needs, real or virtual, of the market. Noone. What is bad with that? Nothing, in marketing terms. Our problem probably is that we don't consider music as a market. So, some persons -and not all of their songs- have just nothing to tell us.

And what is the market in the field of music? To my mind the number of people who buy the CDs and the number of people who go to the concerts.

And here are some examples for the numbers of sold CDs:

a) 1999: Antzela Dimitriou ("Kane stin akri"):  25.000 records // Dalaras (CD with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra): also 25.000 records

2001: Giannis Ploutarxos ("Mikres fotorafies"): 50.000 // Dalaras ("I asfaltos pou trehei"): also 50.000

c) Dalaras ("Latin" [1987]): 600.000  // Anna Vissi ("Kravgi" [2000]): 300.000

etc.

All the numbers I mentioned you can find at

www.musiconline.gr/gold/index.html

respectively the number concerning "Latin" in the book "Odigos ellinikis diskografias 1950-1997" by Petros Dragoumanos (the newest version of this book I do not have with me at the moment).

And when you look at these numbers you would still say that Dalaras does not serve certain needs of a market or that we (the listeners of Dalaras) don't consider music as market? We and Dalaras constitute in the same way (or even in a stronger way) a market as it do for example Antzela Dimitriou or Anna Vissi and their fans. So in any of the cases we have to do it with "commercial" singers and with listeners of "commercial" songs - nothing else (undependent of the question how we think about the quality of this music, the personality of the singers etc.).

And by the way, I do not understand why some people (of course not only Nikolas) say so easily that "certain singers" serve only "certain needs ... of the market", but in the case of Dalaras all is completely different: He "follows his taste and his instinct". Isn't this way of thinking a little bit unfair?

I am sorry not to be able to compare Dalaras with Dinos Vrettos or Nikos Speris. [...] . And if such names are equally or more important than Dalaras was in 1970 (...), which I heavily doubt but can't be sure of course, I think I would not have missed them.

Vrettos and Speris were of course only examples. But I think we all know very well that today it happens quite quickly that we miss something even very precious only because we have no possibilty to learn about its existence: When the record company does not advertise enough an artist, when the songs are not played in radio and TV - how will you get to know that the singer and the songs exist? Do you know how many excellent films (especially from France) or how many interesting books I almost would have missed if I had not learned about their existence completely by chance?

Here again the market plays an important role: The economy promotes the "products" (films, books and of course also songs and their performers) which (presumably) will find the most customers. The consequence is that the existence of other "products" will easily be missed by the people. But that does not indicate that these "products" are of bad quality or unimportant.

[...] This is the one view. It assumes that the singer, Dalaras, does all this to remain popular. The other one is that he does all this because he likes it.

The one possibility does not exclude automatically the other. I think people who can combine their personal preferences with the requirements of the market or of their job (whatever) are quite lucky. But anyway, once more (in the same way as concerning his activities for Cyprus) I distrust the enthusiastic defenders of Dalaras in the same way as his massive opponents: We all cannnot look inside a person and are not able to detect the motivation why he/she is doing something. (Except the rare cases when we know a person very very well. Something that obviously is not the case for any of us concerning Dalaras.)

Experiments with symphonic orchestras don't make him more popular in any way.

Oh yes, of course they do. How many people (outside of Greece of course) have ever heard the original version e.g. of "Mi mou thymoneis matia mou" on CD? I am quite sure that (in the worldwide range) a lot of additional people got to know the song only because of the interpretation with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (a CD that was placed on the international market).

In fact, most people would prefer him to sing laika and rebetika only.

Are you sure about this? I wish you were, but I am convinced that the situation is (unfortunately) completely different. In this respect I must agree with Sarantis' statement: "If Dalaras had just stayed playing laiko music throughout his career,he may not have been around today...". Can you tell me singers who remained true to laiko music and are still around today? (O.k., perhaps up to a certain degree Mitropanos, Pashalis Terzis and Karras. But anyway, a small minority.)

Or to show it by the example of Dalaras himself: Latin (= non laiko) sold 600.000 records since 1987; by far more than any other record of Dalaras within this 14 years.

National cooperations...I would like to remind that he didn't suddenly discover them in order to remain popular. National cooperations are there, from his earliest steps.

They are, yes. But as shown by the examples I mentioned (Pyx Lax, Fragkoulis) I referred to Dalaras' "crossover" national cooperations, that means with musicians who deal with an entirely different music style from Dalaras' one (rock, opera etc.). That is something completely different from his cooperations with Alexiou (in the 70ies) or Vissi (in the 70ies) etc. In these early times all partners in the cooperation belonged in a harmonic way to the (more or less) same type of music.

He [= Dalaras] said after some laugh that: "What do I have to do with this Ethnic? remember, I sang songs of Apostolos Kaldaras in 1971, I don't need any ethnic now!" Not to mention that I also personally don't undertstand this word 'ethnic'. Isn't it a marketing term once again?

At the moment I also could not find any clear definition of "ethnic" but I think my description and my examples were not so wrong. Dalaras may say  "What do I have to do with ethnic?", but in effect how would you call the type of music he makes today primarily? And to my mind it's not automatically a shame to make "ethnic" (although I consider it, like you, as a marketing term). I only do not appreciate "ethnic" (for various reasons) and I think that Dalaras could produce much better things.

Anyone who would watch any of his concerts, would realize the respect Dalaras has for his roots. His roots are an important part of his performances, sometimes the longest. These roots made him popular and he pays it back all the time singing and speaking about them.

It is good to hear that obviously in his concerts Dalaras remembers more his roots than he does on hist last CDs. But don't forget that the major part of the listeners will not have the possibilty to watch concerts and so they depend on what they hear on the CDs. But still more important: To remain true to the roots is more than simply "remember" the roots; for me it does not mean to play some beloved evergreens of the past in a concert. Music should not be like a museum where you save and present precious things from the past. Not to abandon the roots would mean to continue - with new productions - the (let's say) "traditional" way; of course always with modifications and changes (for example to my mind it would be impossible or at least ridiculous to try to compose new "rebetica"); but all this without losing the identity. And exactly this loss of identity happens to my mind in the case of Dalaras. (Although I admit that it happens more gradually than in case of many others singers like Alexiou or Protopsalti.)

And something else I do not understand: Let's assume that Dalaras does not want to abandon his roots. Let's also assume that this is one of the reasons why he participated in the year 2000 on a CD with songs by Stavros Kougioumtzis ("Evrehe o kosmos"), singing 3 (new) songs of this composer. (I think no one will doubt: This has really to do with Dalaras' roots.) In 2001 Dalaras publishes "I asfaltos pou trehei". From the 28 songs 4 titles are the complete repetition of his single CD "Tha 'rtho na se vro" and another song ("Hasta siempre") is also a repetion from a former record. All these 5 songs to my mind have nothing to do any more with Dalaras' roots, or at least by far less than the 3 songs with Kougioumtzis. So what's the reason that not even one of these songs can be found on the double CD?? Difficult for me to imagine that this is the fault of the record company or its producers.

He [Dalaras] follows his taste and instict.

Probably. But in the same way I follow my own taste and instinct. And every listener (whatever he/she prefers: Pavarotti or Michael Jackson or Anna Vissi or Giorgos Dalaras or ...) should do the same.

[Michael 2]

Hristaki, I always try to write and to speak in a way that my opinions and arguments are understandable even for people with ... limited intellectual capabilities. I am sorry to see that in your case I did not achieve this aim.

But that's no problem: In order not to disturb the other visitors of the club, I suggest you to send me an e-mail in which you describe in detail all the difficulties you have in understanding my text. I will try to find out where your intellectual limits are and then I will do my best to give you the explanations on a level that is adequate to your mind. Don't worry, we will manage it.

[Astron 17]

Can you tell me singers who remained true to laiko music and are still around today? (O.k., perhaps up to a certain degree Mitropanos, Pashalis Terzis and Karras. But anyway, a small minority.)

He who has the insolence to compare Dalaras and Mitropanos to Karras and Terzis probably has no idea of what we call "good qualitative Greek Music"

(Sarantiis gave a good definition of what good greek music is.)

I dont want to accuse Michael for having these ideas.

What I accuse him for is the fact that he expresses his ideas in an insolent way as he doesn't have the knowledge which is required for such conversations. Maybe he cant even feel what good Greek Music is.

I have no problem with Michael staying in this club.

It is just that I 've heard these ideas so many times from people who have a lack of knowledge and I thought that in this forum I would only find people who admire Dalaras's work as a whole.

There are other places where such conversations could be held, such as Greek music forums at http://www.music.gr etc

I personally wont try to convince Michael on anything about Dalaras's work. It is just a waste of time.

[Lynne Kleanthous 0]

I've been very sick the last week and only just opened up the club and read all the last posts.

I only want to say two things:-

1)  Regarding Cyprus, perhaps you should ask the Cypriots here their feelings on Dalaras!!!  I think that his feelings for Cyprus are real, and even if it does give him publicity - so what - who in this world can say they act totally unselfishly - I for one don't know anyone - but he was already so famous when he started doing all this that it didn't make much difference to him but it certainly helped Cyprus.

I will add that my husband (who is Cypriot) remembers Giorgos in '74 after the war, sitting on wooden steps in a refugee camp playing guitar and singing with the people there - not for money, maybe you should ask them.

2)   As for his music, everyone has their own opinions, but this is a Dalaras club and therefore we must presume that the people who visit this club are fans and enjoy his music.  Comparing one artist to another is pointless, I personally listen to other singers as well, even Greek pop as the radio plays this most of the time.  But there are not many that can compare with Dalaras's voice.  

Michael have you seen him in concert?  Maybe then you would realise how much he likes the old songs, his face lits up when everyone sings with him and they request songs.  I watched his concert last week on TV from Zygos (which I also saw live) and it's amazing how much he loves his roots.

Happy New Year to everyone

I won't write any more as there are too many long posts and it becomes difficult to read them all.

[franz averstegge 5]

Good words Lynne! I agree with you. We are a Dalaras club.I know, nobody is perfect, but someone who only criticize cannot be a friend of Dalaras and his music.   Franz

[Niki 0]

I just remembered it! Dalaras cried on stage! while singing a song for Cyprus, some years ago! Tears started coming down, he went backstage and then returned and continued. Soc, speak up!  And on Zygos while singing a song of his father he was really moved! (something that has happened again with other old songs -he is moved or as Lynne said his face lits up) So, I will never accept that Dalaras does not believe in what he does, or that he has abandonned his roots. What more proof does anyone need to see that? He is a great singer! And I'm sure he can't be a great actor on the same time!

 That was a rather emotional answer... I'll come back to stand by my opinion with arguments... Untill then Have A Great New Year's Eve...

[sarantiis 5]

Lynne, dont worry.anyone wht half a brain knows that Dalaras has real passion for the Cyprus cause.We hear it in his voice, we see it in his eyes,we feel it in his heart!!!...We know whats in his heart,and we know how deeply he feels about the situation there.For anyone to question his motives is wrong especially without knowing the facts.The people of cyprus are happy to have someone of Dalarases stature take up for their cause.......I think had Dalaras looked for publicity or had other motives why wouldnt he have takin on a more visible cuase on the international level...For example, aids or some other cause that would have his name everywhere on an international level.He chose to stay close to home and take up a cause thats dear to his hart and culture...We should all aplaud our Patriot.He has givin too much time,sweat and money for us to critisize......

[Michael 2]

Concerning Astrons statement:

He who has the insolence to compare Dalaras and Mitropanos to Karras and Terzis probably has no idea of what we call "good qualitative Greek Music"

Astron, you should realize that in democratic countries it is the right of everyone to express freely his opinions. Part of this is that I can compare every singer with every other singer - without being insulted by you!!

I dont want to accuse Michael for having these ideas.

What I accuse him for is the fact that he expresses his ideas in an insolent way as he doesn't have the knowledge which is required for such conversations. Maybe he cant even feel what good Greek Music is.

Surely YOU do not have any reason to accuse me for anything. Neither you or any other person (here or somwhere else) is entitled to decide what is "good Greek Music" and - even less - to decide who can feel it. So the insolence is on your side, not on mine!

And without going in details, I can assure you that MY knowledge about the relevant things is at least as large as yours. Moreover in your reaction I could not find any knowledge at all but only insults.

I think there will be a lot of "simple-minded" people who admire Vissi or Karras and do not have your perfect taste in musical matters, but they have a better heart and more tolerance than you. These are for me more valuable people than arrogant (pseudo-)experts like you.

I have no problem with Michael staying in this club.

Oh, thank you for your generosity. But if even if you had a problem I would not care about it and express my opinions whenever I regard it as indicated.

Concerning Lynne's statement:

[...] we must presume that the people who visit this club are fans and enjoy his music.

Yes, but it must (or better: it sould be) possible to express also some critical positions. But as I see (once more) this is only an illusion. Unfortunately we find here (= in the field of music) the same intolerance, the same fanatism and even the hatred towards people with different opinions which we know from religion, politics and sports.

Comparing one artist to another is pointless, I personally listen to other singers as well, even Greek pop as the radio plays this most of the time.  But there are not many that can compare with Dalaras's voice.

I agree with you. But it was not me who started the comparison with Greek pop singers (but Sarantis). And moreover I never compared the voices but the repertoire.

Michael have you seen him in concert?

Yes, as far as I remember about 5 or 6 times.

[Micki 1]

One person will be at home (stupid 'grippi' is stroking again) tonight. And besides feeling sorry for myself (I'm drawning in selfpity   ), I also feel sorry for you Michael.

As far as I can see it here, there's no hatress here.

And another thing, you've been in concerts of Dalaras ? How could you NOT see what a kind, modest person he is ? I'm just wondering...

And Lynne, I agree with you, whether he is famous or not by what he does, is not important, what he does comes from his heart and that is important. And I hope you are feeling better now, take care of yourself.

Besides, come to think of it, if Dalaras was not famous or at least well known, I would miss on something huge and wonderfull without knowing what it was.

Have a great time tonight you all !

Micki (haatjiieeee, sorry for that)

[Niki 0]

I think we are walking on a dangerous path right now...I think we might (including myself) have been carried away...  And it would be wise to stop and take a breath...

  As far as music is concerned, yes, everyone is free to listen to whatever he wants and decide on his own what is good and what is bad. Besides beaty -in everything including music-can be very subjective... I may like one song, or one tune or some lyricks could really speak to my heart, but that doen't mean that everyone will have or must have the same opinion... And we might even like the same thing but for completely different reasons...

 And of course everyone is free tell us his opinion... I'll be glad when I discover that someone shares the same ideas as I do, but I won't reject someone that feels different about it. Even though I may disagree with someone and reject his opinion, that doen't mean that I reject him as a person.

 This is a Dalaras Club. We are NOT fans in any way... We all have a mind and I believe we use it. We judge things and we judge Dalaras as well, on our owns. And I'm sure most of us (even the ones who support him and stand up for him in every case) have found something that they would rather it would be different. Me for example, I 've found some songs that under different circumstances I wouldn't hear them at all, but just because it's his voice I accept them, though I'd rather he hadn't sang them at all. And so does everybody... And admitting it it's not bad.

 However, here, we all prefer to speak about the things that make us feel the way we do about this man. And we keep the rest for ourselves.That's why (I think) Michael is misunderstood. He only says what he doesn't like on Dalaras. But that makes the rest of us feeling the need to protect our friend, to stand up for him, to attack back the one who "insults" the one person that means so much to us. Michael I don't remember you having said what you do like on Dalaras... I think that 's your fault. You've made us all believe that you don't like Dalaras at all.

 Dalaras is a man. Which by definition means that he is not perfect. He's not perfect as a character and he does make mistakes. As all of us. It would be cruel on him if we believed otherwise.

 

 I think there are two kinds of listeners. The ones who care only for the music, the songs, the lyricks and the performances. And the ones who are in a completely different level. Those who having loved the music, the lyricks and the performances, haved loved the man as well. (I don't mean that someone is superior than the other. By no means I never said that.) I think Michael (not only Michael, but also others) is included in the first category. Yes, he doesn't seam to share our passion for Dalaras as an artist and a person on the same time. Most of his critisism is directed to Dalarases music choises. Dalaras as a person remains something obscure to him. If I'm right, he says he cannot be neither positive nor negative about him, because he simply doesn't know him.

  Concerning the music, I don't mind it if someone has different tastes that I do. Concerning Dalaras as a person, I've said that I believe in him. He has convinced me. And I'm sorry that this hasn't happened to Michael as well, but I also thing that he never really cared about it. Michael, you have given me the impression that you deal things with logic and that you need hard evidence on everything. That's not bad. It protects you from many things. But let me add, that you sometimes loose very important things as well... Micki is right, how couldn't you see what a kind of a person he is? You lost all the magic...

 I don't know Dalaras. Or to be more presice I know only a part of him. The part of him that is revealed through his songs, his words (the few times that he speaks) and what he does in public. There are many things that I don't know about. Is he a hypocrit?  I'm willing to take this chance. I believe in him.

 Closing here is what he has written and I think it worths remembering it...

"This story of the proffesional that thinks and organizes everything perfectly is a myth. I am dedicated in what I do. Music. I'm not saying that I am the best person of the world, nor the most perfect musician of my generation, nor the best singer that has ever passed. I do what I believe. This for many is an "eccentricity" that is pointed out and is shown. I don't even know if it's an oddness.[...] I don't like the society I live in. My town is a prison. And not so much for me... Just because I got lucky and I'm a privileged person  because of my job, that means that I should become the other prisoners's guardian? When you are known your responsibilities are much bigger. The bad that you can do may be desastrious. As well as the good, even if it's not much, may be essential. I believe I've done good things. But this city it's as if it kills the feelings,and the good sides of people. I don't see the good being discussed never and from noone. I read, I hear often that Dalaras goes everywhere, does everything, ending "doesn't he need to stop?" Why stop, guys? [...] I will stop to help young people to proove that song is not this shame that we listen around us? I will stop doing the good things that come, because of fear of doing too much? You know how I felt when I read on a wall in Cyprus DALARAS=HUMAN? I felt like I've been paid for everything.

What am I telling you now? I rather speak only for the old things, the unknown. The new ones are to be judged by others. And may I tell you a secret? They are rarely objective. [...] Sometimes against, sick, persistent idea and sometimes -fortunately the least times- hyper-fanatical. That's the most unbairable. [...] What more to tell you? I've been singing all those years, I've given hundreds of concerts all over the world, I've been applauded by hunded thousands people, I've been given great critics... What I felt when I sang in Thraki, in the three-nations with Aidonidis, in the Green Line in Leykosia, and on the soil in Sxoinoudi, in Imbros, facing the ruined houses, I felt it only when my daughter was born. What else can I say to you? The worst thing that happened to me, anyway, in my life is fame."

                                                 December 1996

Have a Great New Year's Eve...All of you...

[Michael 2]

Niki (SPQR), I agree in wide parts with your posting. In many sentences you express exactly what I think too.

Concerning your remark:

Michael I don't remember you having said what you do like on Dalaras... I think that 's your fault. You've made us all believe that you don't like Dalaras at all.

When I react to a certain posting (in this case it was Sarantis' one) I deal with the contents of this posting without repeating general things which I have already mentioned - without any success - before (in my postings some months ago). And most important: Towards people like Sarantis, Hristaki or Astron I do not have the slightest reason to explain anything!! I owe these persons absolutely nothing!! And I do not care at all what they believe about me.

For all the others who are interested to know, as Niki missed it in my further statements, I will say it in a few words: Of course it is not true that I do not like Dalaras at all. I love Dalaras' wonderful (to my mind) voice which - from the beginning of his career on - for a lot of years built a perfect combination with the (also wonderful) songs he performed. Today I also sometimes can find a song with Dalaras which moves me in the same way as the older ones: for example the three songs by Kougioumtzis I already mentioned (on the CD "Evrehe o kosmos") or the duet with Maria Farantouri "Ihohromata" (on the CD "I triti porta"). In general, Dalaras remains one of my most important musical experiences in life (perhaps under some aspects the most important one at all).  

Concerning Dalaras' personality and its "quality", you (Niki) write that you think I "never really cared about it". I can assure you that I would be very very interested to get to know better the personality of every of the Greek artists I admire, to learn what they think (about their work, about general topics), how they are as private persons etc.etc. That applies to composers, to lyric writers and of course also to singers like Dalaras. But it is a practical problem: How do we (= the simple listeners) have the possibilty to get in personal contact with these people? So there remains only, what you have mentioned so properly:

"I don't know Dalaras. Or to be more presice I know only a part of him. The part of him that is revealed through his songs, his words (the few times that he speaks) and what he does in public."

And I would like to quote here also some sentences because they comply fully with your statement. They are written by the journalist and author Nikos Dimou (see the book "Καθημερινά Κυριακάτικα", page 182):

"Κάθε άποψη περιέχει μέσα της ένα ποσοστό αλήθειας. Αλλά πόσο μεγάλο; Πέντε τα εκατό, ή πενήντα; Για να προσδιορίσεις το ποσοστό πρέπει να γνωρίζεις το σύνολο, το 100. Ποιος όμως γνωρίζει όλη την αλήθεια για να καθορίσει τον βαθμό της προσέγγισης;"

"Every opinion contains a percentage of truth. But in which extent? Five percent or fifty? In order to specify the percentage you have to know the total, 100 (percent). But who knows the whole truth so that he can determine the degree of approach?"

[Andreas 0]

As said before, this is NOT the right forum for objectiveness. Let's just end this discussion.

[Geske 37]

I started this topic telling stories, and will go on doing so - personal stories, shared experience, and without a moral, please note.

I'm just back from Switzerland, where my parents live, having spent two and a half weeks with them. I couldn't say good-bye to you guys before going, because the forum was down, and had no Internet over there (and the nearest Internet cafe is 20 km away over snowed-in roads, and it was closed anyway). So, I had to live with the withdrawal symptons, and miss you.

To comfort me, I had brought very nearly my entire collection of Dalaras cd's. And I inflicted them on my family - full blast... My folk have this most gorgeous hifi, no neighbours, and the walls of the house are meter thick anyway, so: παμε! Let me mention that I brought them up on heavy metal as a teenager, and they can stand 'most anything.

So, one evening it was the Misa Criolla. Then I tried Thessaloniki-Yannena on my mom, who promptly asked for it again next day. Then I inflicted Η ασφλατος που τρέχει on them at lunch, keeping my mouth full to refrain from singing along very loudly. Then Μικρα Ασία while we did some sewing. Καλώς τους somewhere in between. "A bord de l'Aspasia" specially for my mom, who loves jazz. And "ομοργη και παράξενη πατρίδα" because of Elytis.

And so on.

They were a bit worried about me, because though I am always more or less mad, I am not at all monomaniac. A little bit of all the different things, that's me - never big lumps of one thing. So, me being over the moon, getting a soul-quake, just from a song - that was no worry. Seeing me so totally immersed in this one voice - that did worry them.

Until, after I'd put on Υμνοι αγγέλων σε ρυθμούς ανθρόπων, one night over drinks, I suddenly realised just how very, VERY varied and diverse Dalaras' work is. It hadn't registered until I started "presenting" it to others.

You see, my father liked the Misa Criolla.

My mother liked the folk songs and gypsy songs, and also the Bregovic stuff, and also of the "artistic" songs, the settings of Καββαδίας and Ελύτης and such.

My sister got grabbed by the high-power-stuff: "της αγάπης μαχαιριας" and "ασιμενια σφίκα".

I would like to think - and I do hope - that for everyone, there is a Dalaras song they can like. It's just a matter of finding the right one.

[Geske 37]

There was some talk about "roots" earlier in this topic.

All that is gold does not glitter

Not all those who wander are lost

The old that is strong does not wither

Deep roots are not reached by the frost

It's not in the movie, so you'll have to read the book: The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien, book 1, chapter 10. And let me tell you: the movie is much more beautiful as an illustration to the book (they had to pack so much story into the script, that the poetry, philosophy and mythology got rather left out).

[soc 1]

To Michael:

December 2001

Journalist: The crisis in discography, does it affect your choices?

George Dalaras: No way. I am currently making three albums, I will give them to my record company, and they can get them out whenever they want. I prepare an album from the concerts dedicated to Vassilis Tsitsanis, a tribute to MIkis Theodorakis, and I collect nice λαϊκά songs, because I miss them.

Journalist: Your return to λαικά songs looks like a continuous recarnation. The other looks like it is in your activities abroad, going beyond an international career

G.D.: The concerts abroad are an escape route for me. My motive is not to have an international career. I don't want to do two or three hit songs, translated and have success. I want to transfer the weight of the greek song, with ρεμπέτικο, byzantine, έντεχνο, with their restriction but also with their color. I also never entered the logic of "ethnic". Why do I need the "ethnic" for when I sang Kaldaras hiimself. The term ethnic does not suit me.

Journalist: Then, which term would describe your presence abroad?

G.D.: The same term that describes my presence in Greece:

"Λαϊκός Τραγουδιστής". That is my prayer

-------------------------------------

I will make this debate that you started more interesting. I said to somebody once. The difference between a listener and me is that the listeners buys the cds or goes to concerts for the songs. I buy the cds or go to the concerts for the voice. So, I cannot be objective. And to prevent you from using this against me, this is what I will do. Everytime you find something new (or everytime you recycle something) that you don't like or you don's agree with, from what Dalaras does, I will give you his own answer. I will dig in old and recent interviews to find the answers to your concerns. Then the only issue for us here, will be whether or not he is telling the truth. But if he is not, what is the reaosn for you to be in a forum dedicated to a liar?

And two more things: You keep talking about the Latin album. I assume you refer to the forst part, because the second contains old λαικά greek songs of some of the most important λαικους composers of the greek music scene.

and most impotantly, I have a question: How is it possible that you  show up when Odysseas3 is not around and that he never shows up when you are around?

[Micki 1]

Soc, you said it all and very right and clear.

Maybe, Odysseas3 will answer next time. And to be honest ? Michael or O3, do please, I'm curious how this will develope and for all those interviews that Soc has.

Micki