People who do not know Dalaras

[Michael 2]

Soc, it is good to see that someone who does not agree with me reacts by trying to use arguments and making questions.

To begin with your last point (as it is the most important for you, as you write):

How is it possible that you  show up when Odysseas3 is not around and that he never shows up when you are around?

Well, I neither see the reason or the importance of this question nor the connection with the topic of our discussion. But anyway, I do not coordinate the writing of my postings with the absence or the presence of Odysseus3 or any other member of the Club. So I could ask in the same way: Why is it possible that YOU (Soc) did not show up during the last 10 or 12 days when I did so (writing my postings)? Or why is it possible that I did not show up in the weeks before (when YOU were participating actively in the Club)?

Concerning the quotation of the interview with Dalaras: It is always of interest to hear or to read what an important person has to say. But that does not mean that in a certain interview we get always substantial answers by the interviewed person (as you seem to assume at least concerning the interviews given by Dalaras). And surely it is not so simple as you would like to make me (or others) believe:

Then the only issue for us here, will be whether or not he is telling the truth. But if he is not, what is the reason for you to be in a forum dedicated to a liar?

In order to decide if someone is a liar or telling the truth, he must say something substantial, and this "something" must be a statement about facts. Dalaras (in combination with the journalist) uses two specific terms: "ethnic" and "λαϊκός τραγουδιστής" ("laikos tragoudistis"). And he asserts that the one thing ("ethnic") has nothing to do with his work whereas the second concept ("laikos tragoudistis") characterizes his identity as singer. No definition of the concepts, no clarifying in which meaning they are used, no reasoning by Dalaras for his assertions. So it would be absurd (and you are by far too intelligent not to know it) to assume that by making such a statement Dalaras tells us a truth (or a lie). Concerning "ethnic" (and his relation with "ethnic"), at best he utters a (subjective) opinion - and to disagree with someone's opinion does not automatically mean that I call this person a liar. And concerning his statement that he is a "laikos tragoudistis", Dalaras is obviously right if he means the simple translation "popular singer" or "singer of popular songs", but he is (to my mind) also obviously wrong (at least regarding an important part of his activity) if he means the word "laiko(s)" in the specific meaning this concept has in greek music. And without discussing such aspects with Dalaras (the interviewer obviously did not do it), it would be ridiculous to draw any conclusions from his statements (either in order to support either in order to contradict anything).

And something else concerning your question about the reason to be in a forum dedicated to a person that could possibly be a liar:

To regard someone as a liar does not automatically mean that I do not admire or like his work (= his voice, the songs he performs, his compositions, his lyrics, his books, his films, whatever).  

(And moreover: Even if I do not admire or like one's work, I could nevertheless be interested in being informed about it, in discussing it and in criticizing it.)

I can give you a much more drastic example than that of a liar: Akis Panou (= greek composer and lyrics writer) was not a simple liar but some years ago he became a murderer (sentenced to life imprisonment for his horrible crime). But nevertheless I still like some of his songs - and not only the music but (sometimes) even their lyrics (written by him too)! I admit that this causes a big psychological problem for me (because on a strictly rational and ethical basis I should not like any longer his work at all) and of course today I hear his songs with much more emotional distance than earlier. But nevertheless I still cannot ignore the charm of some of these songs.

So let's ASSUME that I regarded Dalaras really as a liar (for example because he announces a tribute to Theodorakis whereas I would know for sure that in reality he prepares a tribute to, let's say, Michael Jackson): Do you really think that this would be an obstacle for me to hear his songs or to visit a website dedicated to him?

You keep talking about the Latin album.

Usually I would not do it but it seems necessary to me because others do the same and as far as I can see, this album has been sold more times than any other record with Dalaras (with the exception of the live album "Ta tragoudia mou") and as I have the impression that many listeners identify Dalaras more with Latin than with songs by ... Kaldaras.

I assume you refer to the first part, ...

Right.

... because the second contains old λαικά greek songs of some of the most important λαικους composers of the greek music scene.

That's of course wrong (it seems to be a test concerning my knowledge about Greek music): Of course not even one of these 12 songs is an "old laiko greek song" (if we take "laiko" as a specific term again). That are simple imitations of latin-american rhythms and melodies, something that was "en vogue" in Greece at that time (late 50ies, early 60ies I assume). It has absolutely nothing to do with "laika" songs. Or would you say that mambo, rumba, bossa nova etc. are rhythms on which laika songs (or any other type of greek music) are based? Or do you hear in this song any melody or any instrument that is characteristic for laika songs?

And the "most important laikous composers" on this record are only two: Zambetas (1 song) and Hiotis (2 songs). The rest of them (Morakis, Mouzakis, Polymeris etc.) are by no means "laikoi composers". (And I am 100% sure that you know such things, Soc.)

And even concerning Zambetas and Hiotis: To be "laikos composer" does not automatically mean that EVERY song of such a musician is written in this style. Or would you (for example) say that "Ymnoi aggelwn se rythmous anthrwpwn" are "laika songs", only because they are written by the "laiko composer" Stavros Kougioumtzis?

[soc 1]

Well, forgive me for saying this, but me, genuinely ignorant about music (and I mean absolutely no sarcasm here), I would trust Dalaras to tell me what laiko, and what ethnic is, and not you. And this is not personal, it's just a matter of source reliability. So, if someone needs to define the terms before classifying themselves or others, that should be you and not Dalaras.

Your opinion about being a member of a forum that is dedicated to someone who is a liar or a merdered or a pedophile or whatever else is absolutely yours, does not concern me and you may choose to do as you wish. However, before you left the forum last time, you took the time to write a really long message explaining the reasons for which you left. You pressumed that people cared. It doesn't matter if you were right in assuming that we care, or not. What matters that by refusing to tell us why you came back, or what changed since then, you are being inconsistent to yourself and to those who were interested in the reasons that drove you out of this forum in the first place. I am not included in this group, since I couldn't care less about who is joining and who is leaving.

About the albums. I promised that I will leave Dalaras speak for himself, but there is something I forgot to write yesterday about Η άσφαλτος που τρέχει. One of your arguments was that four of the songs were a repeat of a previous work. I refer you again to numerous interviews by the singer where he explains why this happens and what his personal opinion about this is. And my humble personal opinion. This album hasn't sold as expected. YET. I think it is by far the album that most accurately describes what Dalaras is and wants to be. A musician. And a really good one.

As far as the Latin album is concerned, or every other album that you don't like. You seem to forget something. The CHOICE is not the singer's. The choice is yours. To listen to it, or not, to buy it, or not. Do not restrict your freedom as a listener by having the illusion that something is imposed to you, and if you don't think this way, do not underestimate the others.

And finally. Are you really interested in knowing where I have been in the last 12 days?

[soc 1]

And something else that I forgot. By classifying the greek composers now and earlier I start forming an opinion about your approach to greek music, and only that, I hope. Dangerously conservative. Not that you should care about what I think. But it's rather an indirect answer to Andreas (one of the few people who stood by your side) who thinks he is the most liberal person in this forum.

[Geske 37]

I think it's time for a little generative metaphor. Since we were talking about roots earlier, I'm casting Dalaras as the tree.

Friend and foe will agree that he is a large tree. A huge tree. A gigantic tree, in fact.

Now every big tree has big roots. If not, it falls down. They have to be deep, or wide. In Dalaras' case, they are both.

Some people say, now and then, that Dalaras is "denying" his roots, or "cutting himself off from them", or things like that. If he did, he would wither and die. He would soon drop dead, musically. And, I believe, litterally as well, pretty soon.

His roots reach into all sorts of different soils, and nourrish him with all sorts of different things. As the saying goes, you are what you eat.

You know about fruit trees? A wild stem grows to the right size. The person who is taking care of it makes an incision in the right place and sticks in a twig from the desired kind of fruit-bearing tree ("to graft", in English). If the graft takes, the wild stem bears this fruit.

From medieval times, it has been possible to graft several different species of fruit onto one tree - if the tree is strong enough, and well-cared for.

Some people rejoice to see a strong, talented tree bear apples, and pears, and plums... flowers and fruit at the same time...

Others disapprove of this, as being artificial, useless, wastefull, dangerous, impure, etc. Some only like apples, and say it's a waste of the tree's strenghth if it bears plums as well.

Suppose the fruit tree spoke up, and said: I would like to grow one more kind of apples, please?

I know, the tree can't speak - but Dalaras can. The tree can't choose its grafts - as Dalaras does.

Come on, listen! Φίλε, άκου! He does not glitter, but he does bear the silver apples of the moon, the golden apples of the sun! His roots are too deep to be reached by the frost!

He grows and flowers and rejoices our heart because that's his being. The marketeers may market the produce and even turn a profit. That is their nature.

But who ever accused a tree of making fruit for payment?

[Michael 2]

Concerning Soc's posting:

I would trust Dalaras to tell me what laiko, and what ethnic is, and not you.

You are free to trust whomever you like. Such as all people (in democratic societies) are also free to choose a religion and to believe whatever their God (or His prophets) are telling them. Only you ignored the fact that (at least in this interview) Dalaras does not tell you anything about what (for him) is laiko and what (for him) is ethnic. He only uses the terms - and to my mind that is no proof for anything.

So, if someone needs to define the terms before classifying themselves or others, that should be you and not Dalaras.

Concerning Dalaras, see above. Concerning myself, read carefully my postings.

Your opinion about being a member of a forum that is dedicated to someone who is a liar or a merdered or a pedophile or whatever else is absolutely yours, does not concern me and you may choose to do as you wish.

Thank you for your generosity and excuse me for speaking about it. You asked, and therefore I tried to answer.

What matters that by refusing to tell us why you came back, or what changed since then, you are being inconsistent to yourself and to those who were interested in the reasons that drove you out of this forum in the first place.

Try do deal with my ARGUMENTS and not with my PRESENCE in the Club. Anyway, I have to answer you the same as Sarantis: I do not owe you any explanation when and why I participate in the Club. And being inconsistent to myself is exclusively MY problem - surely not yours.

One of your arguments was that four of the songs were a repeat of a previous work. I refer you again to numerous interviews by the singer where he explains why this happens and what his personal opinion about this is.

You may refer me to these interviews but unfortunately I do not know them. So I still have no idea about the reasons for the repetition. Maybe there are convincing arguments but at least up to now they are unknown to me.

As far as the Latin album is concerned, or every other album that you don't like.

That I do not like "Latin" is your (and surely some other persons' too) interpretation of my critical remarks concerning this record. But interpretations are not always correct.

The choice is yours. To listen to it, or not, to buy it, or not.

I fully agree with you - and I add: "To like it, or not" and "To criticize it, or not".

Are you really interested in knowing where I have been in the last 12 days?

No. (And moreover you also owe me no explanations about your absence or presence.)  I mentioned you simply as an example to show you that in this respect there is no difference between you and Odysseus3.

By classifying the greek composers now and earlier I start forming an opinion about your approach to greek music, and only that, I hope. Dangerously conservative.

Roughly (and I really emphasize this word "roughly"), I agree with you, concerning the "conservative". But I do not see any danger in this preference. Dangerous are blind and intolerant fanatics as we can find them everywhere - even among the fans of singers.

[Geske 37]

The people I find dangerous are those who like to lay down laws for others to follow - the only kind that is more dangerous, is those who believe what they are told without asking questions.

[Michael 2]

That's a very diplomatic definition, Geeske.

[franz averstegge 5]

Nikolas,can you close this topic,it is more and more FOOLISH!!!

[Niki 0]

No definition of the concepts, no clarifying in which meaning they are used, no reasoning by Dalaras for his assertions.[...]Concerning "ethnic" (and his relation with "ethnic"), at best he utters a (subjective) opinion - and to disagree with someone's opinion does not automatically mean that I call this person a liar. And concerning his statement that he is a "laikos tragoudistis", Dalaras is obviously right if he means the simple translation "popular singer" or "singer of popular songs", but he is (to my mind) also obviously wrong (at least regarding an important part of his activity) if he means the word "laiko(s)" in the specific meaning this concept has in greek music

 Michael, you are right, he does not give a defination of what he means -not in this interview- (but that could be arranged :cool: ). However, you don't seem to give a clear definition as well. And this is a call to all of you. Please, tell me what each one of you means when he uses the terms "laikos tragoudistis" and "laiko tragoudi". I don't have an well formed idea and it would be very enlightning to hear what you think. (I've started another thread about that, I didn't want to interupt our discussion).

 

 Back to the topic,

To regard someone as a liar does not automatically mean that I do not admire or like his work (= his voice, the songs he performs, his compositions, his lyrics, his books, his films, whatever).  

(And moreover: Even if I do not admire or like one's work, I could nevertheless be interested in being informed about it, in discussing it and in criticizing it.)I can give you a much more drastic example than that of a liar: Akis Panou

  Well, if someone is a liar, or unethical, etc... yes it may not prevent you from admiring his work, but I certainly believe it would be a waste of time to pay further attention to him. If I didn't thought that Dalaras is authentic and true, I would still like his voice and songs, but I definately wouldn't be here. Nor would I have all these "fights" with the ones that don't like him as a person, nor I would care about what he said or done.

And I recall what Dalaras once had said about someone he had collaborated with at the beggining. "I expected from an idealist musician to be an idealist person". You could say that this is exactly what I expect from him.

One of your arguments was that four of the songs were a repeat of a previous work. I refer you again to numerous interviews by the singer where he explains why this happens and what his personal opinion about this is.

 

 I think one of the interviews that soc had in mind is the following. It's from December 2001: Look, I don't agree with some practices. Nor with the songs that are imposed on radio stations, nor with the CD-singles that come on the market and then are followed by the whole disk. These are tricks of the job which I very hardly accept. Sometimes I go in the meetings of companies and I sleep. I honesty say this. I don't folllow the conversation, this is not my job.

 

Dangerous are blind and intolerant fanatics as we can find them everywhere - even among the fans of singers.

If that's true, then I would be very very sad... But as I've said I trust that all of us are openminded and have the ability to critisize what they are being told.

 Well, as far as the stricktly musical parts of this conversation (what is laiko, and whether the songs in Latin are laika, etc...) are concerned, I'm afraid I cannot express my opinion, as I have no real knowledge and no idea about it. I can only tell what I like and what I dislike. But I would appreciate it if someone could help me and explain how things are in the forum that I mentioned above.

[Geske 37]

I have a question.

Suppose you were given real, decisive influence over Dalaras' next album: over what songs he would choose, and how he would interpret them.

How would you use it?

[Micki 1]

Good question. And I want to keep in mind that it is a hypothetical question because I wouldn't want to be of any influence in real.

I would choose for songs about peace, friendship and respect.

Micki

[Niki 0]

I know it's rather irrelevant, but I would like to know what kind of music he likes to hear... From Greece and the whole world...

[Michael 2]

I have to add something else concerning the interview with Dalaras, quoted by Soc. Dalaras says that one of his next projects is:

... and I collect nice λαϊκά songs, because I miss them

And that is exactly the quintessence of what I say in my postings too: "I miss the nice laika songs."

So for me it is quite clear that in this respect I have more in common with Dalaras than persons like Sarantis, Hristaki,  Astron or Soc although they think that they are the owner of all the truth concerning Dalaras. None of them ever mentioned that they would miss anything concerning Dalaras. And not only that: Their only activity is to attack and to insult me for saying things that Dalaras himself remarked. Oh, how ridiculous these people are ...!

[Geske 37]

Michael, I am really eager to know your answer to my earlier question:

Suppose you were given real, decisive influence over Dalaras' next album: over what songs he would choose, and how he would interpret them.

How would you use it?

[Andreas 0]

Soc,

I am sorry if I have made the impression that I think myself to be the most liberal member in the club, but you have to take into account that I am swedish and thereby almost by birth discustingly neutral  . I just happend to be a person who want to discuss things from a very objective point of view without any facts taken for granted, and I would really like to discuss Dalaras and his work from that point of view. Now, this is not the forum to do that in, since it is a fan club and hence I will not participate in any more of this type of discussions.

A little detail should be added though: A musician, how ever good he might be, doesn't neccesarily have to know musicological terms, such as laika might or might not be. I don't know any Greek musicology. Also, an artist who knows the correct description of a song might very well simplify terms for an interviewing reporter or might get his/hers words rewritten. With all this I just want to say that I shouldn't be 100 percent sure that what Dalaras is QUOTED to have said is correct. I personally think that Dalaras has a very good understanding of Greek music even in musicological terms, but the above arguments make interviews a little unreliable source of information.

Andreas

[soc 1]

Andreas,

I agree with you almost 100%. I only want to add that the way I think about this particular musician is that he has actively tried to enrich his knoweledge and skills so I trust his approach more than I would somebody else's. One thing that I want to see in such a musician is the creativity. The courage to see deeper and turn stereotypes upside down without losing his respect. To have the guts to take a song like Ένας κόμπος η χαρά μου and twist it around, and do the same with a song from a Turkish composer or from Μαρκος Βαμβακάρης or even by Lucio Dalla.

And another think. The fact that you are Swedish doesn't mean anything, and should not mean anything. People should be valued individually, on an extremely personal basis, and in no way they should be associated with countries, cities or families. So, at this particular moment I am talking to Andreas, and not to a person from Sweden. Because if we start assigning labels to people according to where they come from, imagine  what we could say about somebody who comes from Austria for example or Germany or Greece or Turkey or Israel or Palestine.

[Christo 9]

I have been trying to follow this topic line faithfully from the beginning but its contxt has been getting distorted drastically from each posting.

 Michael

You've been away for nearly 6 months now .

  and since that time frame,

 we have not had any derogartory remarks from our favorite artist.

 Now in the new year,

I find more negativity from you again.

 Why do you post such comments?

What purpose can or does it serve?

 I'm quite aware that this is Freedom of Speech and allowed to comment on anything you'd like.

However,

  in all sincerity

this is not a gossip board.

and

 I repeat this is not a Gossip Message Board.

 Let me ask you this:

 Would you post such slander

 about other artists in their web site

 i.e.

  Parios on his message board?

 Sfakianiakis on his message board?

 Mitropanos on his message board?

 Vissi on her message board?

  Alexiou on her message board?

  etc., etc.,

If you do, well you have guts

 at least your not doing this on here to the Dalaras club alone.

 But if your not I for one would appreciate you'd stop.

 

 I don't want to insult you

but you do have a way with your thoughts that try to justify things but

 at the very tail end,

  the semantics is lost and forgotten.

  whereby they make no sense at all, thereby your point of view goes totally

  unjustified.

 Please bare in mind, most of us in hear adore the majority if not all the works and projects from Dalaras.

  This is not a place to attack

 and I don't mean to offend

but I cannot find any significance from your postings to

bash or criticize Dalaras and others members comments in here.

  BTW,

  Also keep in mind

 unless you were a producer of EMI-MINOS

  I don't think you have any point of reference to state what Dalaras should or shouldn't record in the future;

 and that goes true for all of us in here who have no saying with MINOS or the Dalaras recording producers.

 We can certainly voice our ideas and make suggestions as what would be desirable for our listening pleasure although bear in mind they may not happen per our wishes,

 but

as long as these requests  are positive ones

 and not

 NEGATIVE!!!!!

[Michael 2]

Geeske, concerning your question:

Suppose you were given real, decisive influence over Dalaras' next album: over what songs he would choose, and how he would interpret them. How would you use it?

I (must) avoid a very concrete answer to your question for two reasons:

- You refer to a very theoretical situation and it is always a little bit difficult for me to imagine what I would do "if"  ....(when this "if" is far from reality).

- Of course I could mention various names of composers I would like to see in cooperation with Dalaras (and I have given some examples in former postings). But to pick out some names would mean to neglect others (equally important ones). The same applies to mentioning specific song-styles or songs or records (which I would like to hear performed by Dalaras).

I think you can see by my former statements certain general wishes and ideas I would have ("if I were ..."). At least for the moment I would not like to add more characteristic examples for the two reasons mentioned above.

(PS: Perhaps it sounds queer, but it would be much easier for me to speak about this directly with Dalaras than doing it here in an abstract and theoretical way.)

[Andreas 0]

Soc,

I know. I was just making a little fun of the Swedish reputation. Actually, most of my family are from Larisa and some more live in Denmark, so it is a bit hard to tell what I really am.

Andreas

[Michael 2]

Christo, as far as I remember, you were also one of the persons who attacked me (in a personal and insulting way) already at the time when I was active here in the Club a couple of months ago. So I will not deal with any detail of your (completely absurd) above statement.

Things are quite clear:

You will have to live with my postings, my way of thinking and my opinions. Surely (as long as I have enough time to write here) I WILL NOT STOP posting because you (or anyone else) do not like me or do not like what I write!

If you are not able or not willing to accept these facts you have only two possibilites:

- You ignore my postings

or

- you complain to Nikolas about me and you suggest him to exclude me from the participation in the Club by technical measures.

[Geske 37]

Michael, you _have_ answered my question.

From your posting, it appears that you would actually USE that influence.

After two warnings, too... by Micki:" I wouldn't want to be of any influence in real". And by me: "The people I find dangerous are those who like to lay down laws for others to follow".

Let me express this bluntly, as I see it:

I want Dalaras to do what he wants,

you want Dalaras to do what you want

Well, it would be a nice pie _if_ you could eat it, as the saying goes. But you can't: Dalaras is free, incredibly so in fact (considering how famous he is). He decides for himself what is right and what is wrong. What to say, or sing, and to whom - he decides for himself, no one else.

So must you, Michael. And don't try and make Nikolas or anyone do it for you!  So must ALL members of this forum.

[Geske 37]

Hristaki, you are being hasty: you respond to my interpretation of Michael's answer as if Michael had said these things himself.

(And. Btw. I like you a lot better when you don't shout.)

[Geske 37]

You want to be heard?

Well, you could try this old Dutch recipe: "naar wie zacht spreekt, wordt scherp geluisterd"

Translated: "someone who speaks sofly, is sharply listened to"

Meaning: you shout, people stop their ears - you whisper, they listen up.

[Michael 2]

Beyond all philosophic thoughts (Geeske) and beyond all shoutings and insults (e.g. Hristaki) things are quite simple:

- For YOU (Geeske, Hristaki) Dalaras is a God and a religion. And you get always more aggressive and intolerant in your religious belief.

- For ME Dalaras is a singer with an almost always wonderful voice, with also wonderful songs in the past, with sometimes (not too often) wonderful songs in the present, and - also in the present (= during the last years) - a lot of SHALLOW songs. SHALLOW sometimes in their melodies, sometimes in their rhythms, sometimes (in most of the cases) in their instrumentation, sometimes all of that. Additionally he exaggerated by far his dealing with non-Greek music (shallow or not shallow). Moreover there a number of "experiments" in his concerts which I also do not like (e.g. symphonic orchestra for songs by Kougioumtzis, balalaikas for greek music etc.). And, finally, in some cases he promoted artists (singers) that - to my mind - are simply not good.

Hristaki, this statement is dedicated especially to you for your comment:

GROW UP and STOP acting and shooting your mouth off...like an "#####"!!!! We don't need your GARBAGE in here!

I await your next comment - and the comments of all my other friends here who would be ready to do anything for their beloved God Dalaras!

[Niki 0]

Michael and everyone,

Dalaras is a man. Which by definition means that he is not perfect. He's not perfect as a character and he does make mistakes. As all of us. It would be cruel on him if we believed otherwise.