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franz averstegge

Some thoughts about the club.

183 posts in this topic

PS. Apostoli, signomi, it was me asking about Angela Dimitriou, but I was not sure, what kind of artists she might be.

You know,  after almost 25 years of listening to Greek music I have still such a huge amount of anonymous voices in my memory, that I have to ask such questions, just to help myself to recognize and to identify them.

Even, if it was not me, who opened the  particular topic.

:blink: Olga? Pleeeeease!!! You (or anyone else) do not have the slightest reason to apologize or to justify for asking about a certain singer, for opening a topic about him or for simply saying that you like his/her voice, songs, whatever!

Of course some (or perhaps many) Greeks will laugh about you or will consider you "uncultivated" when you say that you like Antzela Dimitriou or Lefteris Pantazis or Anna Vissi etc. But that should not influence at all your preferences in the field of music and the less it should be a reason to feel in any way "guilty".

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Danke vielmals, Michael! But this is a slightly another case:

- for Greek members some things concerning their country are completely obvious, including language (a long discussed topic here in the Forum already)

- and the another ones could be completely xaroumenoi, if they have Greek radio on their satellite and can understand every fifth-tenth information in full.

Forget the non-Greek keyboard, where the Greek letters are hidden under the most sophisticated combination with the normally used keys.

PS. To be sincere, I do not know, where to put questions, which need only one single answer, not to multiplicate short topics.

Are there two singers with the name Anna Vissi then?

The one singing "Dipsasa stin porta sou" and "S'agapo" and "Paramythi xexasmeno"? If yes, I like this first one.

And one of my favourite composers is Jan Dismas Zelenka (this sentence is not planned out of topic, but I bet, for almost everybody here it would sound like Angela Dimitriou for me :))

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Are there two singers with the name Anna Vissi then?

The one singing "Dipsasa stin porta sou" and "S'agapo" and "Paramythi xexasmeno"? If yes, I like this first one.

?? No Olga, of course not. (And she es even the same Anna Vissi who continues to sing today :) ).

PS: Sorry, in general I had problems to understand the meaning of your posting.

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Olgα, you must ask in order to learn! there is nothing wrong with it!

Michael, αυτό είναι που έλεγα πως δεν πρέπει να υπάρχει κανένα είδος λογοκρισίας στο forum. Αν αρχίσουμε να παραπονιόμαστε για το τι γράφει ο καθένας στο forum, τότε ο κόσμος θα κομπλάρει και δεν θα ξαναγράψει ποτέ του. Και έτσι πρέπει να γίνετε. Ο καθένας πρέπει να λέει αυτά που πιστεύει και αυτά που θέλει.

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Something like "Speak, what we feel, not what we ought to say"? In the best possible meaning of these words?

I would write "πρέπει να γίνεται"... does it mean I am not the only one with problems of writing rules?

And then I have some questions in "Learning Greek".....

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Michael, αυτό είναι που έλεγα πως δεν πρέπει να υπάρχει κανένα είδος λογοκρισίας στο forum. Αν αρχίσουμε να παραπονιόμαστε για το τι γράφει ο καθένας στο forum, τότε ο κόσμος θα κομπλάρει και δεν θα ξαναγράψει ποτέ του. Και έτσι πρέπει να γίνετε. Ο καθένας πρέπει να λέει αυτά που πιστεύει και αυτά που θέλει.

Έτσι είναι, Αποστόλη. Μόνο που εσύ ο ίδιος παραβιάζεις αυτές τις αρχές όταν γράφεις λ.χ.:

[...] Γι αυτούς τους λόγους θεωρώ ότι το συγκεκριμένο topic, που άνοιξε το μέλος [...], δεν πρέπει να ανήκει στο forum του Γιώργου Νταλάρα.

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Michael, το forum αυτό το παρακολουθείς από την αρχή του. Στην αρχή λοιπόν αυτό το forum ήταν άψογο! Μετά από 3 χρόνια, δεν αντέχω να βλέπω στο forum αυτό, topic αφιερωμένο στην ’ντζελα Δημητρίου. Με κάνει έξω φρενών!! Απλά δεν το δέχομαι. Είναι απαράδεκτο κατά την γνώμη μου. Το ξέρω... μιλάω εγωιστικά. Αλλά έτσι είναι. Μία διασκεδάστρια που πηγαίνει στην Τουρκία και πουλάει τις 'Μαργαρίτες' σαν ελληνική μουσική, και κουνάει επιδεικτικά τις δύο σημαίες, τότε η ίδια η ’ντζελα Δημητρίου με κάνει να ντρέπομαι που είμαι Έλληνας. Ναι! Θεωρώ οτι το επίπεδο του forum ξεφτιλίζεται όταν αναλωνόμαστε να μιλάμε γι' αυτα τα πρόσωπα, από την στιγμή που μπορούμε να μιλάμε για πράγματα σαφώς ανώτερα.

Αυτό είναι ένα international forum Michael! Στο forum αυτό μπαίνουνε άτομα από όλο τον κόσμο! Δεν είναι δυνατόν κάποιος που ενδιαφέρθηκε για την Ελληνική μουσική και τον Νταλάρα, να μπει στο forum για να βρει πληροφορίες και εμείς να τον προτρέπουμε να μπεί στο site της Δημητρίου! ΞΕΦΤΙΛΙΖΟΜΑΣΤΕ σαν έθνος!

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Αυτό είναι ένα international forum Michael! Στο forum αυτό μπαίνουνε άτομα από όλο τον κόσμο! Δεν είναι δυνατόν κάποιος που ενδιαφέρθηκε για την Ελληνική μουσική και τον Νταλάρα, να μπει στο forum για να βρει πληροφορίες και εμείς να τον προτρέπουμε να μπεί στο site της Δημητρίου! ΞΕΦΤΙΛΙΖΟΜΑΣΤΕ σαν έθνος!

Μα είναι δυνατόν! Τώρα ο Νταλάρας, η Δημητρίου και ένα topic σε αυτό το Φόρουμ γίνονται εθνικό ζήτημα;;

Είναι τρομακτικό να βλέπει κανείς τις τελείως παράλογες διαστάσεις που παίρνει ο τυφλός φανατισμός.

Μετά από 3 χρόνια, δεν αντέχω να βλέπω στο forum αυτό, topic αφιερωμένο στην  ’ντζελα Δημητρίου. Με κάνει έξω φρενών!! Απλά δεν το δέχομαι. Είναι απαράδεκτο κατά την γνώμη μου. Το ξέρω... μιλάω εγωιστικά. Αλλά έτσι είναι.

Και πώς συμβιβάζονται αυτά με τα άλλα σου σχόλια όπως "Ο καθένας πρέπει να λέει αυτά που πιστεύει και αυτά που θέλει."; Και "δεν πρέπει να υπάρχει κανένα είδος λογοκρισίας στο forum";

Ή λες ψέματα με τις δύο τελευταίες φράσεις ή θα έπρεπε να σκεφτείς τι θα μπορούσες να κάνεις να βγεις από αυτό το δίλημμα ... (Εγώ θα ήξερα τι θα έκανα σε περίπτωση που υποφέρω τόσο πολύ ...)

Όποια κι αν είναι τα προσωπικά σου συναισθήματα όταν βλέπεις ένα posting για την ’ντζελα Δημητρίου - αποκλειστικά δικό σου θέμα είναι. Μην προσπαθείς να τα χρησιμοποιήσεις να τρομοκρατήσεις άλλους. Τουλάχιστον σε μένα τέτοιες μεθόδους δεν πιάνουν!

Πάντα θα αντιδρώ στην επιθετικότητα και στις ύπουλες ενέργειες των αυτοαποκαλούμενων "φίλων της ποιοτικής μουσικής" να εκτοπίσουν και να χλευάσουν όσα και όσους δεν ανταποκρίνονται στις δικές τους ιδέες περί "ποιότητας", "επιπέδου" κλπ.

Σε τέτοιες περιπτώσεις δεν πρόκειται πια για απλή αγένεια ή μισαλλοδοξία. Είναι αδιάντροπες προσπάθειες γελοίων φανατικών να αποστομώσουν και να διώξουν όσους τολμούν να έχουν διαφορετικό γούστο. Ο καθένας ξέρει πώς ονομάζονται τέτοιες μεθόδους ....

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Μα, Michael, ο πολιτισμός μιας χώρας είναι εθνικό θέμα ούτος ή άλλος. Γι' αυτό άλλωστε υπάρχει Υπουργείο Πολιτισμού και δεν υπάρχει Υπουργείο Διασκέδασης....

Πάντα θα αντιδρώ στην επιθετικότητα και στις ύπουλες ενέργειες των αυτοαποκαλούμενων "φίλων της ποιοτικής μουσικής" να εκτοπίσουν και να χλευάσουν όσα και όσους δεν ανταποκρίνονται στις δικές τους ιδέες περί "ποιότητας", "επιπέδου" κλπ

Καλά κάνεις και αντιδράς. Δυστυχώς σε ένα internet forum όπου οι απόψεις εκφράζονται μόνο γραπτώς, είναι δυνατόν πολλές φορές τα άτομα που συνδιαλέγονται, να παρεξηγούνται αρκετά εύκολα. Και κάτι παρόμοιο συμβαίνει και με εμάς τώρα. Έτσι λοιπόν, καλό θα ήταν να σταματήσουμε εδώ.

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A topic that directly attacks and doubts Hatzidakis' presence in the greek music and his talents, has 4 times less posts than a topic that discusses Angela.

So, apparently, Michael's post was true. Hatzidakis is very unpopular lately even compared to Angela now, when she is not on the peak of her career

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soc, to topic tis Antzelas den tha itan toso popular, an egw den to eixa parei toso proswpika to thema. Sfalma mou...

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So, apparently, Michael's post was true. Hatzidakis is very unpopular lately even compared to Angela now, when she is not on the peak of her career

My conclusion about this is that quality and popularity do not necessarily match !

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A topic that directly attacks and doubts Hatzidakis' presence in the greek music and his talents, has 4 times less posts than a topic that discusses Angela.

So, apparently, Michael's post was true. Hatzidakis is very unpopular lately even compared to Angela now, when she is not on the peak of her career.

I do not think that (in this case) it has to do so much with the popularity or unpopularity of the artists:

It is right that obviously only Francois (and to a certain degree NIKH) was interested in commenting and discussing my postings about the (what I called) "dark side" of Hatzidakis. I would not like to utter possible reasons ( :razz: ) But on the other hand, in the (up to now) 38 postings in the topic about Antzela Dimitriou you will also find almost no substantial comments concerning the singer herself or her work (and in their vast majority the comments give the impression that she is unpopular).

I think the participation or not has to do more with psychological reasons than directly with certain artists: Whenever people feel personally affected by some posting they will tend more to react (in the sense of: "The comment of XY is such a nonsense [or such an impudence or such an insult (or whatever)] that I cannot remain silent.") (I think in this respect Apostolis' explanation above was correct.) And when one member starts, other follow (including myself). And that produces a series of reactions.

(But I admit that certain artists are something like a red rag for other people provoking very easily emotional reactions. Here [in this Community] it are singers like Antzela Dimitriou [and a simple link to a website about her]. But I know a forum where the same happened whenever the name of Dalaras was mentioned. :lol:)

If you take a look at the topic about Dalaras' record "To elliniko prosopo " you can see that it has also a lot of postings (and views) during the last time though object of this topic (during this period) was Hatzidakis (respectively the story he told on the cover of the LP): There were some impressions or comments that affected others personally (the original assumptions of some members about a "naked" Dalaras, my negative comments about Hatzidakis' story etc.). This provoked statements like "you managed to get me angry" etc. and so one posting followed the other.

Obviously emotions are the most reliable motivation for writing.

Unfortunately the intolerance and fanatism of people is always a terrifying signal (even if it has to do "only" with art and not with politics, religion etc.). Otherwise I would be amused perfectly by the course of such "discussions" about certain singers, songs etc. :)

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It is right that obviously only Francois (and to a certain degree NIKH) was interested in commenting and discussing my postings about the (what I called) "dark side" of Hatzidakis. I would not like to utter possible reasons ( :) )

I was interested in your topic, Michael, because as an admirer of Hadzidakis, I also want to know and understand other facts that I don't know and opinions of other listeners. Personally, I tend to overlook the "dark sides" of artists, but why not try and understand them, after all. We all have our "dark sides"... :razz: Why shouldn't artists have theirs too? I am certain Dalaras has a "dark side" too :razz: but I still haven't found it... "Nobodys perfect"... :razz::D:)

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Sorry, all a little bit off topic:

It is right that obviously only Francois (and to a certain degree NIKH) was interested in commenting and discussing my postings about the (what I called) "dark side" of Hatzidakis. I would not like to utter possible reasons ( :) )

I was interested in your topic, Michael, because as an admirer of Hadzidakis, I also want to know and understand other facts that I don't know and opinions of other listeners.

I know, Francois. (And I appreciate this way of thinking.) I referred to the possible reasons of the silence by others ... :)

Personally, I tend to overlook the "dark sides" of artists, but why not try and understand them, after all. We all have our "dark sides"... :razz:  Why shouldn't artists have theirs too?

Exactly. And if the dark sides are too evident they probably influence my opinion about the work of this artist. (That's no sarcastic remark in context with Hatzidakis. I say it in general. :D )

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Two short remarks:

I still get PM's, mails and letters from the Community members to my birthday

and as I saw now the "online list", the "Personal Messengers" are used at the same minute in very far away corners of the world.

A great thing, Nikola, ευχαριστούμε!!!

and slowly slowly comes the time you should be cured?

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Dear Members,

I decided to quit for some weeks from the active membership in our Forum.

The reason is the post I got in the "translations" topic some days ago,

where I was told, my questions and remarks would be ignored by an another member. Too esoteric, I was told.

If we are really a Community, and not one of the thousands chat clubs in the Internet, such kind of statements should be absent here.

Even, if one member is not the whole group of people posting and working here.

Everybody of us writes sometimes posts, which are less understandable to certain group of members. I do not even mean our eternal problem of the non Greek speaking friends, just another ones.

Including concert reports, which are full understandable only for those, who attended the event.

But just for those "esoteric" posts (i.e. for chosen people, not for everybody....) we are grateful here.

And if you can not share your remarks, questions and doubts (excluding those, what offend each other), then "something is rotten in the state of Denmark".

Being ignored is the worst one can experience.

I do not want this.

I will have my PM box opened and I'll stay in contact with members.

I will look to the works of the Forum, too. Perhaps, for the first time, as Anonymous Member.

But do not ask me openly to express any opinions in any matter, please.

I need some time.

Thank you for understanding.

And do not forget Oguz and his birthday in two days. He is working very hardly this year and can not be active, but still deserves our best thoughts.

Olga

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Only a comment to your statement, Olga (without the necessity that you answer):

Geske's reaction was simply an act of rude and bad behaviour. No doubt. It must be possible to disagree with opinions or theories of other members but the way in which Geske expressed her opposition is unacceptable.

Olga, of course you should take your time to withdraw for a while from the Forum, if you think that you need it. But please bear in mind also the following:

- Whenever a person who was offended by another member withdraws, the "winner" is the offender. I think that this is no desirable situation (neither here in the Club nor elsewhere). So to my mind it is better to remain and to oppose any attack. Therefore I always tried to "fight" within the Club when I had a dispute with other members, caused by public postings (at least I "fight" as long as the conflict does not destroy the whole atmosphere of the Club I withdrew only one time when I felt that it was better to quit in order to avoid such a result).

- You are a very active and experienced member, Olga. I could imagine that when you withdraw you give a bad example to other, "younger" members: They won't even less dare to express their opinions when they see that not even you want to do it any longer.

- Perhaps the most important point: Obviously you enjoy participating in the Club; you have a lot of interesting things to say; and your questions show that you are really interested in learning more about Greek music (though I know that some of them still remain unanswered since quite a lot of time - that's my fault too :) ). So I think that quitting your active membership for some weeks would be a loss for both sides: for yourself and for all the people who like to read your interesting postings.

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Olga, listen, I want to apologize for my bad manners, if not for my opinion.

Calling that post "rude and bad behaviour" seems exaggerated to me, and your reaction, leaving the forum, seems exaggerated too - I say *seems*, not *is*. It seems so to me, but not to you, I understand that.

I can see that my words caused you more hurt that I intended, and for that I am sorry.

Some of your queries do irritate me, but I should not have let it show in public in this way. That was bad manners, for which I apologize.

But, Olga, the fact that your questions make no sense to me is not going stop you from asking them! Who the helll do you think I am, Big Brother? I expected (and still expect) you to tell me I'm a bad-tempered old grump, and to go on asking whatever you like.

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Olga,

Look I also agree with what Michael said.

When one has questions, one asks. Is it an offense to ask? I think not. (I'm not referring to the Translation issue, it's more general) Otherwise we're no more in a free democratic forum, and I hope it is one. Sometimes, we have a bad day, sometimes, we say things that we shouldn't. And it's ok. There's always time to apologize and if apologies are not accepted, then the wrong is no more on our side. "Don't do to the others what you don't want the others to do to you". God, if only half mankind could put this in practise, the world would be a better place. We say it many times but we don't do it. We like to be forgiven but we don't want to forgive. It's so easy to see the defaults in the others and not in ourselves.

Some weeks ago a member that was quite controversial was expelled. Honestly I don't very much understand why. A forum is not supposed to go smoothly all the time. Maybe I'm wrong. Now you want to leave.Why should you leave? You helped make the forum what it is. Of course you're not the only one, but you're one of the most active. If a person doesn't like what you write, this person will certainly tell you. But this has to do with one issue, not with all your participation in the forum!

So, you like to ask esoteric :) questions? why not? But if you ask me about potatoes when I'm talking about turnips, I'll tell you: "Olga, have some rest, drink some beers and tomorrow we'll talk." :) No insults needed.

So, you like to write about cultural stuff? It's your right and if you bore me to death with it, I won't read it. Some people like to talk about the best way to cut their nose's hairs, others about the supreme difficulty of peeling a banana. I think what you say is much more interesting. :)

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See, Olga? Geske said she was sorry. :)

Anyway, I won't add much. Just that it doesn't make sense to leave a place because you have a problem with one person in that place. And problems are a part of life, you do know it... Don't go crazy over something like that, I was almost called a fascist once and why should I care? I am what I is not what others think I are! :lol:

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Dear Members,

thank you for all the posts.

Geske, it seems we are simply "incompatible" personalities, that's all.

But even if I knew that before, this case was too categorical indeed.

I had really the impression you want to behave just like this "Big Brother" in the part of the Forum you are working most. But it is you, too, who called this first, and I appreciate that.

Well, I was once called already (and with a friendly intention) "Big Sister".

Then, damn it, Big Brother and Big Sister in one Forum, an interesting couple indeed.

A potato and a turnip in another version, what one would you like to be then?

Now a kind of explanation, what, I think, is useful by this case.

The situation here is complicated by a fact, English is for most of us not a native language.

But some words sound still in the same way in many languages.

I had to learn, how to deal with words, not only during my literaric studies. It was sometimes a painful and long-lasting study of life.

Therefore, I try to be very careful in using language and words. I became sometimes oversensitive in this matter.

Let me repeat, being ignored is the worst one can experience, this oversensitivity to words is born from such situations.

I know it.

You didn't.

Not that there is a need to avoid different opinions, this is not realistic and not wished in any way.

Just RESPECT instead of ignorance.

Sincere thanks to everybody for the patience and time given to this event.

But I will still take the time free from active work in the Forum.

I see I need it.

Olga

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