"Laiko"?

[Niki 0]

Well, here we are. As I've said, I cannot define satisfactory this word I'm someone who cannot see the limits of laiko. I think it is a word that can be used very easily to describe different things. So, I'm asking: What does "laiko" means for you? What do you have in mind when you are saying "laikos tragoudistis" and "laiko tragoudi"? Examples would be helpful, but I would also like some attenmpts to give a definition... And I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this one... Am I asking too much?  

[Geske 37]

My forum friends have been working so hard on my education that I might actually name one-two songs and say 'these are probably λαϊκα' and one-two others and say 'these probably are not'. A tribute to you - you know who you are!

Now genres, and definitions, are both useful and dangerous (this combination happens very often). In music as well as anywhere else...

There are examples that belong fully to one genre.

And there are the border cases. The song you might call laiko, but also dimotico. The song you might call laiko, but also tango. The song you might call laiko, but also rock. And so on!

Borders are where quarrels happen, especially when people want to define the border and claim Yours and Mine.

Borders are also where interesting meetings happen, where new ideas are born.

Having philosophized a bit on a Sunday night, I now wait with curiosity for everyone's examples, in order to go on with my education...

[Vasilis 0]

I believe laiko has to do with simple people.To "laiko tragoudi" whose beginning is dimotiko and rebetiko later,is the song  most people like listening to it.When we talk about "simple people" we talk about people of the the middle and lower social classes.Moreover,"laikos tragoudistis"is the singer who is refered to simple people and he sings about "everyday things",to explain he sings about love,society,emigrants,politic situations,death,mother,family,psychological pain and other simple things.Remember M.Bizani lyrics in "Tragoudistis"

    "Ego eimai enas tragoudistis tou erota kai tis zois

    tragoudao gia ti ftohia kai ti ksenitia kai gia tous              eroteumenous pou 'houne fotia"

[Niki 0]

Well, when saying "is the song that most people like listening to it" don't you think that someone could say that as well Vissi, Sfakianakis, Remos etc(since many are those who like them) they sing laika tragoudia as well?

[Michael 2]

To my mind Stolis gave us a very good definition of "laiko" under its social (sociological?) aspect. I will add the definition I found in a dictionary and I will stress more the musical aspect.

But for people who do not know Greek I will first of all say the following:

"λαϊκός (-ή, -ό)" means literally translated into English simply "popular". So we have:

laiko tragoudi (or only: laiko) = "popular" song  (plural: laika tragoudia [or only: laika])

laiki mousiki = "popular" music

laikos tragoudistis = "popular" singer etc.etc.

Anyway, in Greek language and music it has a more specific meaning. Here is a very general definition of the word "laiko tragoudi" which I take from the dictionary by Babiniotis:

"Γενική ονομασία τού τραγουδιού και της μουσικής που αναπτύχθηκε μετά τον πόλεμο στα μεγάλα αστικά κέντρα της Ελλάδας έχοντας τις ρίζες του στην παραδοσιακή μουσική και το ρεμπέτικο, χρησιμοποιώντας όμως συχνότατα ποικίλα μουσικά στοιχεία τόσο από τη Δύση όσο και από την παράδοση της Ανατολής· αντιδιαστέλλεται

- τόσο από τη δημοτική (μουσική των αγροτικών πληθυσμών της υπαίθρου ή των κατοίκων των νησιών)

- όσο και από την έντεχνη λαϊκή μουσική (που έχουν συνθέσει πρόσωπα με μουσική παιδεία πάνω σε λαϊκές φόρμες)."

It follows a special comment about "elafro laiko tragoudi" (let's say "soft" laiko song):

"[τραγούδι] με λαϊκά και ευρωπαϊκά όργανα σε κλίμακες ευρωπαϊκές και ερωτικό κατά κανόνα περιεχόμενο".

That is surely not the only definition of "laiko" and we should not take it as an absolute truth. But I think it is - together with the aspects desribed by Stolis - a first approach.

(Niki or someone else: Perhaps you can translate into English.)

And perhaps we should also check if there is a common basis for the following assumption (that is not Babiniotis now but my own subjective opinion):

"Laiko" is characterized by SPECIFIC

- rhythms (e.g. zeimbekiko or hasapiko)

and/or

- musical scales (I do not know details about them, but as far I as I know there are "sabah", "hitzaz" and a lot more)

and/or

- instruments (mainly bouzouki, but often also accordion and others)

and/or

- melodies (o.k. that is very subjective, but I think in many cases melodies are also characteristic for the laiko, especially when they refer to ryhthms like zeimpekiko or hasapiko).

Of course you will not always find ALL these elements in a certain song. But if I am not completely wrong, it is the fact that you find at least one or two of them in a song so that you can call it "laiko".

(Of course one could also mention some specific details of the lyrics which could characterize a "laiko" song but I think that would lead too far away now.)

[Niki 0]

Oh, since you mentioned... "Laiko" is different from dimotiko and rembetika or as you think these are the two categories of "laiko"? And what other categories does "laiko" have?

[Geske 37]

Excuse me, I don't mean to play schoolteacher, but... just a small language point:

the word "simple" in English usually fits the Greek "απλός" (and the german "einfach") etc. However! "Simple people" means "######, uneducated people" rather than "the lower / middle class man/woman in the street"; the English idiom would be "ordinary people", or sometimes "common people".

A similar misunderstanding occured in another thread, where someone wrote "simple minded", which means "######, imbecile, idiotic", when then meant only an "uncomplicated way of thinking".

After all, it's not our first language... let's allow an error margin...

[Niki 0]

Come on guys! I beg you!    

[Michael 2]

As you can see, SPQR (Niki), there is NO INTEREST within this Club to discuss anything on a rational basis. The 4 or 5 or 6 persons whose activities are shouting and insulting are not even willing to say at least ONE word concerning a - let's say - "objective" topic. But we should not forget that in the meantime the Club has nearly 250 members. And I assume that for some (or even many) of them it is of interest to continue with this topic too.

So first of all here is my (trial of an) English translation of the definition for "laiko song" / "laiki music" in the dictionary by Babiniotis:

"General naming of the song and the music which developed after the war in the big towns of Greece, having its roots in the traditional music and the re(m)betiko, but using very often various musical elements both from Occident and from the tradition of the Orient; it is in contradistinction both

- to the 'dimotiki' (music of the rural population of the countryside or the population of the islands)

- and the 'endehni laiki mousiki' [artistic 'laiki' music] (which was composed by persons with musical education, based on formes of the [ordinary] 'laiki' music)."

It follows in this dictionary a special comment about "elafro laiko tragoudi" (let's say "soft" laiko song):

"[songs] with instruments of the 'laiki' music and of the European music, [composed] in European scales and usually with contents concerning love."

My answer to your (SPQR's) above question will come later (or tomorrow).

[Michael 2]

I will try to answer to SPQR's (Niki's) questions from above:

"Laiko" is different from dimotiko and rembetika or as you think these are the two categories of "laiko"?

Surely "dimotiko" is no category of "laiko". These types of songs are completely different (in age, historical and social background, in melodies, rhythms, used instruments and I think still more aspects). Of course in some cases their may be mixtures of both styles. (In these cases applies what Geeske wrote: "The song you might call laiko, but also dimotico."). But that are rather exceptions. (If I am not wrong, for example Eleni Vitali and Makis Hristodoulopoulos have sometimes performed such songs.) But in general, between "dimotiko" and "laiko" the borders are relatively clear.

The situation is another one concerning "laiko" and "rebetiko": Some "hardliners" will say that laiko and rebetiko are completely different styles. To my mind (especially under musical aspects) there are no clear borders. It has more theoretical character if you regard the laiko the follower of the rebetiko or if you say: "There is ONE category 'laiko' - the older part of it is 'rebetiko', the later one is the 'ordinary laiko'."

But for better understanding it is useful to have in mind the following:

- The rebetiko ceased to exist in its authentic form quite a long time ago. (There are various opinions at which time: I think most of the experts assume that it was at the end of the 40ies or in the early 50ies. Other experts [like Petropoulos] count even some songs of the early 60ies with Kazantzidis among the category "rebetiko".)

But in any case, the "revival" of the rebetiko within the middle of the 70ies with albums like that of Dalaras is a new (second or third) interpretation of older songs.

- The rebetiko has (at least in its initial form)  a quite different social background from ("ordinary") laiko. (To say it very very simple: "Rebetiko" in his initial form was the music of the people of the "underworld" and the music of refugees from Asia Minor, the "ordinary laiko" [at least in his older form] was the music of the "ordinary" people (workers etc.) as described by Stolis. As a consequence, themes and style of the lyrics will often be different between rebetiko and "ordinary" laiko.)

And what other categories does "laiko" have?

That has also more theoretical importance: You may regard "entehno laiko" and "elafro laiko" and "vari laiko" as different categories: "Entehno" and "elafro" - roughly - as described by Babiniotis' definitions above, and "vari laiko" the "hard" one (as concerning the melody or the mood of the texts etc.)

Only a few examples:

- Usually the songs written by Stavros Kougioumtzis (at least most of them) will be regarded as examples for "entehno laiko".

- "Elafro laiko" will be characterized some "bouzouki-songs" with Parios, Voskopoulos or Vissi.

- "Vari laiko" are to my mind many songs with Kazantzidis, but also some songs with Dalaras. (Perhaps later we can deal with more examples.)

(On the other hand: Why should not be a certain "entehno laiko" be written in the form of an "elafro" or a "vari" ?? You see: Once again no clear borders.)

And now I remind also another (to my mind very beautiful) type of Greek music: The so called "New Wave" ("Neo Kyma"). A music style that existed (roughly) between the middle of the 60ies and early 70ies. Very soft melodies, in many cases (not always) a western (european ) rhythm, romantic lyrics.

Is "New Wave" part of the "laiko"? Many people will strictly say No. To my mind it is once again a more theoretical question as you will not be able to find clear borders. I would say, "New Wave" is at least "at the edge" of the "laiko" (sometimes a bit outside, sometimes inside of it). One of the most famous composers of "New Wave" is Giannis Spanos. And he wrote (at the same period) "genuine" songs of the style "laiko" too. A famous singer of "New Wave" was Giannis Poulopoulos (concerning his activity in the period mentioned above). Dalaras (as far as I know) did never perform typical songs of this category.

Well, when saying "is the song that most people like listening to it" don't you think that someone could say that as well Vissi, Sfakianakis, Remos etc(since many are those who like them) they sing laika tragoudia as well?

To my mind: Of course. And therefore in this sense Dalaras would be the same type of singer as for example Sfakianakis: Both produce popular songs, as both have much listeners who like their songs. With this definition "laiko" is a very general term (moreover without any connection with the musical character of the songs). So it is better to refer again to the word "laiko" under musical aspects.

And if you take the characteristics I mentioned in my former posting (certain rhythm, certain instruments etc.) you will find all combinations:

Dalaras with and without laiko songs, Notis Sfakianakis with and without laiko songs, Anna Vissi the same, Antzela Dimitriou the same etc.etc.

And in order to avoid new aggressions from some people: That's no valuation of the quality of the songs and no statement about my preferences. Some artists may present more simple laiko songs than others (concerning melody, lyrics etc.), some may be heard by people in order to have fun at a party and some may require that the listener concentrates fully on the atmosphere or the message of the song etc.etc. There is a very wide spectrum of laiko songs but I think they have nevertheless something in common (in case that we find out that each of them is "laiko" in the above mentioned sense).

That was all very abstract. Let's see if there are any comments. Then perhaps we can continue with concrete examples.

[Geske 37]

Laika seem to be defined only in part by what they are (certain rythms, certain instruments, certain themes, certain audiences...) - and just as much by what they are not?

I mean, it sometimes looks to this confused barbarian like there are dimotica and rembetika and gypsy songs κτλ (not to mention disco, rock, blues, tango, country, etc.) and what isn't any of them is laika! If even a little part of this impression is true, it's no wonder people can't agree on what it is, and isn't, and ought to be...

[soc 1]

I would like somebody to define "σκυλάδικο" for me, please

[Geske 37]

a shack on a highway where dogs howl at the moon?

[Geske 37]

or a place where policemen get stabbed by a guy for obstructing the stage when his brother's special song is being played for him, after which the guy is sentenced... and a song made about him??

(old old story, but I only just heard it - it's a crazy world, this, and no mistake...)

[nikolas 86]

Well, when saying "is the song that most people like listening to it" don't you think that someone could say that as well Vissi, Sfakianakis, Remos etc(since many are those who like them) they sing laika tragoudia as well?

Niki, interesting topic but quite dangerous. As you ask what laiko means for us and not what laiko is, I would like to give my view of laikos. I believe that laiko is something that comes from the people or is created by the people or it fits the people.(I mean the many people)

If we accept this, then any laiko thing can't be disconnected by the time and place it appears. Any period has its own laika things. If this now happens to be something we don't like, I personally don't mind because laiko doesn;t necessarily mean good. Laiko before 100 years was traditional music. Today it is not, because societies stopped to behave in a traditional way as far as art is concerned. My opinion is that laiko is not a type of songs. They are not songs that share rythms, instruments etc. And I will not deny to classify songs that I may not like as laika. I will only say that laika songs of other periods were far better.  :cool:

[Michael 2]

Nikolas, of course everyone can develop his own "private" definition of a certain term but then any constructive communication between people is impossible because everyone means different things. Of course it is possible to define "laiko tragoudi" simply as a "popular song" (in the way you described it and of the time we live in). But you know that in the field of Greek music the term has a special meaning. Therefore YOUR definition causes the following questions for me:

1. Would you say that the definition in the dictionary by Babiniotis (with its historical, geographical and musicological criteria) is wrong?  

(And of course I do not want to favorize this dictionary. But things will become even more confusing if we refer for example to the dictionary by Kriaras. For him one of the meanings of the word "laikos, i, -o" is:

"[κάτι] που έχει χαμηλή ποιότητα, που δε διακρίνεται για την καλλιέργεια ή το λεπτό του γούστο" = "something that is of low quality, that does not stand out for its cultivated character or its fine taste"

And do you know which example Kriaras mentions for this meaning: "τραγούδια λαϊκά" = "laika songs" !! So following this definition, "laiko" would automatically mean that it is a song with negative characteristics.

2. Why do we speak about "dimotika" songs on the one hand and "laika songs" on the other?

For you the characteristic difference between (let's say) "Poulaki kseno" (for me a typical dimotiko song) and "Ah, helidoni mou" (for me a typical laiko song) will only be that the first one was popular a long time ago and the second one is popular "today"?

With other words: For you "dimotiko" is nothing else than a special term for "old laiko"? The essence for you is that the one is "traditional" and the other contemporary?

3. Soc quoted from an interview where Dalaras said, referring to his next records, that (besides tributes to Tsitsanis and Theodorakis) the third project will be:

 "..., and I collect nice λαϊκά songs, because I miss them."

So (as he misses them), according to YOUR definition of "laika songs" at least Dalaras' more recent productions ("I asfaltos pou trehei" etc.) were NOT "something that comes from the (many) people or is created by the (many) people or [...] fits the (many) people".

Do you indeed think that Dalaras used here the term "laika songs" in the sense YOU mean it?