NikosDalarovios

Dalaras together with?

167 posts in this topic

Zut, I missed the program dedicated to Hadzidakis but now listening to the next program and indeed, Dalaras is singing.

Thanks Soc.

Micki

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I think the best part is this 2 hour program. They play only songs of Markos Vamvakaris. Don't miss it!

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Listening, listening, but I don't understand much of the talking, too fast for me  (still after all the studying I've been doing  :confused:  )

Micki

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God, I missed everything... but I watched Melina Mercouri on TV (Topkapi, with music by Hadjidakis, and a lot of Turkish stuff too). Can't be in front of both screens at the same time...

And you know what? I still haven't done my school work for tomorrow! :confused:

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The posts about Σαν παλιό σινεμα are bothering me a little. It's one of my ancient favourites, from way back when I first discovered Dalaras, instant love. And I think I read somewhere that it is (or was at that time) one of Dalaras' own favourites. So it's a little shocking to hear people saying "not the right kind of voice for Hadjidakis songs", when the example I know best always struck me as perfect.

Also, Annemarie's remark about Mozart tenors seldom being good at Verdi makes sense to me (I am very fond of both, so...) but I don't think it is entirely applicable, because if you compare Mozart to Verdi, you find they wrote very different music, tightly tied to a very different style of singing and performing; the purely technical (or even physical) aspect of singing is very important in opera! Much more so than in our present-day songs.

What Dalaras does (always) is make the songs 'his', his own. He can't sing them the way anyone else does, and no one else can sing them the way he does.

And if it so happens that it's Dalaras' voice that cuts through everything to slice my soul, well, I'll always prefer his version of (for example) a Theodorakis song to (for example) Farantouri's. And Theodorakis can say whatever he likes about it, and have Farantouri for his muse and favourite for decades, if her voice doesn't do it to me, it doesn't...

(and so it goes for those who are deaf to Dalaras)

(who is now singing Οσο βάρουν τα σιδερά and I shall shut up and listen).

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As far as the songs of Manos Hadjidakis are concerned, I think that singers like Farantouri or Dalaras (although they are the best Greek singers today together with a few other ones), are not the ideal singers for them.

Francois opinion about Ntalaras and Xatzidakis is understandable in a way, but personally I dont agree.

In my opinion, maybe the greatest advantage of Ntalaras as a singer is that he can sing a rembetiko and a rock song with the same success. He has this unique skill to change his style of singing according to the image of each song.

Francois, maybe you are influenced because Ntalaras doesnt sing Hatzidakis that much. Because if you say that Ntalaras voice doesnt fit to Hatzidakis songs, then you mean that Ntalaras voice doesnt fit to baland songs, and this is wrong.

And as Geeske mentioned, "San palio cinema" is an amazing example.

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Why shouldn't Francois have the opinion that Dalaras' voice doesn't fit very well withHadzidakis' songs? Like Annemarie hinted at: Different music is written for different kind of voices. That's all it is to it.

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I do respect everybody's opinion here, of course... and I am glad that all of you respect my opinion. We are here to exchange opinions and ideas, and this conversation made me try and understand better than I did Dalaras' way of singing Hadjidakis' songs.

Btw, "San palio sinema" is much better in "Live and unplugged" than in "To elliniko prosopo tou GD". What do you think?

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Personally, I consider this whole CD as one of Dalaras best works EVER... And I really like the versions of all the songs he sings there more... But I'll go check the Live and Unplugged version before answering to you...  :music:

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Personally, I consider this whole CD as one of Dalaras best works EVER...

I do think it is his best CD too (well, to tell you the truth, I haven't listened to ALL of them yet...).

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.

Btw, "San palio sinema" is much better in "Live and unplugged" than in "To elliniko prosopo tou GD". What do you think?

A very interesting comment Francois. Could you explain why ?

Personnally I rather prefer the Elliniko Prosopo version.....

a purely emotional choice!

Your choice must be based on something a little more solid since you are a musician  yourself and so I hope to learn from your comments  :music:

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Yes, Annette, I prefer the "Live and Unplugged" version because it is much nearer the Hadjidakis spirit, and as I told before, I think that GD is trying to find out his way into Hadjidakis' music, and that he will gradually manage to do it.

Of course, the "Elliniko prosopo" version reflects one aspect of Dalaras' evolution towards that music. It is valuable, of course! Every new interpretation will add to the significance of the song and of the poem, and I think that a song is All the interpretations of it AND all the thoughts and reflections about it.

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Vassilis Lekkas sang Σαν παλιό σινεμά on the radio yesterday. If I hadn't known the song, I wouldn't even have looked up from my work. This is purely a matter of pumpkin pie, as a friend of mine would put it (to mean some like it, some don't).

I have also looked up (or rather listened up) the different versions of it that I have: three, as it turns out, from Live recordings, Το Ελληνικό πρόσωπο and Live and unplugged. I couldn't for the life of me chose between them. Honestly. And anyway I don't want to.

While looking them up, I found the cd booklet of the compilation "George Dalaras The Greek Voice", a German edition, in which one Armin Kerker says (I translate from the German), describing Dalaras' carreer: "... to this were later added the songs written by Manos Hadzidakis, often directly for him [Dalaras]: track 8 [of the compilation], which by the way is Dalaras' favourite song"

So now I know where I got that impression - but I have NO idea what authority Herr Kerker has for his assertions. So if anyone can provide more data on this point - please! ("Kerker", btw, means "υπόγειο" - irrelevant but irrestible).

As for "closer to the Hadjidakis spirit" - expressions like this one make me nervous and suspicious... it always, in my experience, means: "closer to somebody's idea of what Hadjidakis' music ought to sound like". Where 'somebody' may be Hadjidakis himself, or the producer of the record, or a critic, or the person using the expression, or - or - or...

I'm not trying to pick a quarrel with you, Francois, nor splitting hairs (I hope) - just reminding us that none of us knows _all_ that may lie hidden in that music.

And thanks for the excuse to play the three versions all in a row very loudly :) . My neighbours are probably cursing you :razz: .

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What a nice post, Geeske!

The only thing I'll add is that all our conversation is in fact a very nice tribute to "Η μπαλάντα των αισθήσεων και των παραισθήσεων"... :razz:  :)

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"As for "closer to the Hadjidakis spirit" - expressions like this one make me nervous and suspicious... it always, in my experience, means: "closer to somebody's idea of what Hadjidakis' music ought to sound like". Where 'somebody' may be Hadjidakis himself, or the producer of the record, or a critic, or the person using the expression, or - or - or...

I'm not trying to pick a quarrel with you, Francois, nor splitting hairs (I hope) - just reminding us that none of us knows _all_ that may lie hidden in that music. "

How right you are Geeske !

We don't know all that may lie in that music, or other music,poems, etc.

This is exactly the reason why I personally love discussions.

I enjoy hearing other people's opinion, particularly when they don't completely agree with me.

I find it sort of mind stretching. I always learn something from it and it also gives me the opportunity to further my own reflexion or to question it.

Not to mention the wonderful possibility of better understanding how someone else reacts, of learning more about what is in their minds.

This doesn't mean that I will change my opinion with every new comment I hear ! By far not !

I'm to set in my mind and usually stick to my first analysis, having more trust in my own opinion....but sometimes I can go as far as altering it a little...

(Hope my english makes enough sense, if not, tell me I'll put it in French and you can translate  :cool: )

So please dont stop debate and splitting hair !

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As for "closer to the Hadjidakis spirit" - expressions like this one make me nervous and suspicious... it always, in my experience, means: "closer to somebody's idea of what Hadjidakis' music ought to sound like". Where 'somebody' may be Hadjidakis himself, or the producer of the record, or a critic, or the person using the expression, or - or - or...

I'm not trying to pick a quarrel with you, Francois, nor splitting hairs (I hope) - just reminding us that none of us knows _all_ that may lie hidden in that music.

Yes! Good! Finally a discussion! People daring to have different opinions instead of conforming to the mass! Keep up.

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I don't really have anything to contribute with since I haven't heard (or possibly heard but not reflected on) many Hadzidakis' songs performed by other artists. Note as well that I don't say anything about Dalaras' way to sing Hadzidakis either. I simply have nothing to compare to  :) .

Concerning discussing how well Dalaras sings different composers works...let's just say that if Michael had been the one venting his opinions on this, this thread would have been a rather profane mess right now, so I urge for caution, this is not the forum for expressing any thoughts that in some way, however far out, can be percieved as critisism. This is sad but I think this is the will of the majority of the members and as such should be respected. Of course, discussions of any other kind is great  :razz: .

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The thing with Dalaras is:he is always, first and foremost, himself; an extremely strong personality, musically (and, as far as I can tell, otherwise).

He does put all of himself, voice, musicality, and the rest, in the service of the composition he is singing - but when we hear him singing a Hadjidakis song, we hear "Dalaras singing a Hadjidakis song", not "a Hadjidakis song". So, pumpkin pie, you like it or you don't.

This has consequences... Take any song I know only, and love very much, in Dalaras' version. Suppose I hear it on the radio sung by someone else. (This happens every day). The odds are ten to one that my first thought will be "right song, wrong voice". While listening, I may admit that this other version is good too - but very, very few can really compare! In my ears, that is. Same problem as 'which singers I like to hear with Dalaras'.

His voice simply seems to disappear the other voices (this is not grammatical but it says what I mean).

I have been trying to put together a compilation CD (remember that nice topic?) with songs in two versions: Dalaras' and someone else's. It's a short, short list!

And just for fun (and to prove I really am an uncultured barbarian): yesterday night (or rather this morning), while listening to Radio Thessaloniki in the company of another forum member, I commented "right song, wrong voice" - then amended to "well, ok, he's very good, but he's not Dalaras" about a version of Αν είναι η αγάπη έγκλημα... that made my friend exclaim: "some people would kill you for saying that!"

Have a go at guessing who the singer was? :):razz:

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So, pumpkin pie, you like it or you don't.

Wait a minute! Who gave you permission to call me by my pet name?

:razz:  :)  :D

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I was not adressing you - "a matter of pumpkin pie" is just my barbaric way of saying "a matter of individual taste".

But I will call you anything you like, κολοκυθοπιτάκι μου :razz::)

Guessed that singer yet? He's the one to claim insult in this story :D

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I was not adressing you - "a matter of pumpkin pie" is just my barbaric way of saying "a matter of individual taste".

But I will call you anything you like, κολοκυθοπιτάκι μου :razz::)

Guessed that singer yet? He's the one to claim insult in this story :D

Hrmm... I knew that..yeah! Since I don't have the ability to read greek fonts right now, I would very much like to know how you pronounce κολοκυθοπιτάκι μου. Surely, the first word is something like "tue-deg", but I don't know the second and only that the third ends with "diddlefizz".

Edit: While composing, κολοκυθοπιτάκι μου looked like three words and now I don't want to rewrite, so I'll just leave it.

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kolokythopitaki mou, do you know any songs that Dalaras sings, that someone else sings better?

I don't, yet - and I wouldn't mind finding at least one, because that would be marvellous version indeed...

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Do you know the second song on "To prosopo..."? The one that starts with an oud solo? Xylouris has an own version that is very good. Different and much more "folkish". It may be better (although they are really different versions) but then again, the song is so good that it is hard to fail. Of course Dalaras has a better voice than Xylouris (who hasn't?), but that is not really what counts. Most of Xylouris early works are very good although he is not a great singer when it comes to technical things (and sometimes even pitch). But he still sings great. And very good songs.

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kolokythopitaki mou, do you know any songs that Dalaras sings, that someone else sings better?

I don't, yet - and I wouldn't mind finding at least one, because that would be marvellous version indeed...

"Ti sou leei i mana sou gia mena": Bellou says it much better than Dalaras!!! No one else sings it like Bellou. But the song "Pefteis se lathi" is A LOT BETTER by Dalaras.

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