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Geske

Τα πρώτα λόγια

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Also from Μικρές πολιτείες.

I think it's also on the "Israel Philarmonic at the Mann auditorium" cd, but it didn't really strike me until I heard the old version - well, with so many masterpieces, we are bound to miss one every so often...

If there is a translation in the Mann-booklet, I didn't refer to it, so all the mistakes are mine. And since Eleftheriou is being as poetical as he knows how, there's bound to be some bad errors in there! Please help if you feel like it...

ΤΑ ΠΡΩΤΑ ΛΟΓΙΑ   |   THE FIRST WORDS

Μουσική: Εβραϊκό λαϊκό   |   Music: Hebrew folk song

Στίχοι: Μάνος Ελευθερίου   |   Lyrics: Manos Eleftheriou

Τα πρώτα λόγια του Χριστού   |   The first words of Christ,

κοντά στον Ιορδάνη   |   on the banks of Jordan,

σου φόρεσα στεφάνι   |   I brought them to you for a crown

κι αγγέλοι τα κρατούν   |   such as the angels wear.

Σε πήρα μια σε πήρα δυο   |   I took you one, I took you two,

και με δεμένα μάτια   |   even if [you were] blindfolded.

μα εγώ στα σκαλοπάτια   |   But I, onto the staircase

του κόσμου σε ζητώ   |   of the world, I am inviting you.

Κι ο κόσμος ήταν από κερί   |   And if the people were made of wax

κι οι τέσσερις ανέμοι   |   and the four winds too,

εγώ το φως που τρέμει   |   I [would be] the flame that trembles

και συ ροδιά μικρή   |   and you, the little pomegranate.

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Difficult one, that.

My dictionary gives me, for στεφάνι: 'wreath, garland, crown', with examples for funeral and wedding wreaths, and the martyr's crown (of thorns).

The other word that occured to me was "aureole", you know, what saints have around their head in icons and miniatures... but it's such a strange-sounding word in English, and quite specific, and I'm not at all sure he means, that, or only that...

So I put in "crown" and hoped for the best.

I just checked the Mann booklet and its translation to-ta-lly different! Like it's a different poem! Also the last verse is missing.

;)  :D  :D

Beautiful song though.

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Here is the translation from the booklet.

It's not a very litteral one!

With the first words Lord said,

near the river Jordan,

a wreath was set upon your head,

that the angels were holding

I lost you so many times, I lost you oh,

how many times you'll never know,

but I'm still on the stairs

of the world and searching

(faithfully copied, including the missing words and punctuation)

I didn't read this till after I did mine, and am now completely confused!

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A couple of years on, having learned more Greek, more English, and better translation skills, I'm giving you a fresh attempt. The translation in the Mann auditorium booklet is inaccurate - the work of someone who knows better Greek than English, an extremely common problem in GR-EN translations.

In translating, some background knowledge is necessary: for example, Greek used the same word for "hebrew", "hebraic", and "jewish", but since English does not have a single word to mean all three, you have to know which one to use. In this case, Jewish, not Hebrew (see notes below).

Τα πρώτα λόγια ___||___ The first words

Μουσική: Εβραϊκό λαϊκό ___||___ Music: Jewish (Sephardic) folk song

Στίχοι: Μάνος Ελευθερίου ___||___ Lyrics: Manos Eleftheriou

Τα πρώτα λόγια του Χριστού ___||___ The first words of Christ

κοντά στον Ιορδάνη ___||___ on the banks of Jordan,

σου φόρεσα στεφάνι ___||___ I made you wear them for a crown

κι αγγέλοι τα κρατούν ___||___ with angels holding them up.

Σε πήρα μια σε πήρα δυο ___||___ I took you once, I took you twice

και με δεμένα μάτια ___||___ Even with my eyes blindfolded,

μα εγώ στα σκαλοπάτια ___||___ but I, on the staircase

του κόσμου σε ζητώ ___||___ of the world, I am searching for you.

Κι ο κόσμος ήταν από κερί ___||___ And if the world were made of wax

κι οι τέσσερις ανέμοι ___||___ in spite of the four winds,

εγώ το φως που τρέμει ___||___ I [would be] the flame that trembles

και συ ροδιά μικρή ___||___ and you, a little pomegranate.

The lyrics of this song are pure Manos Eleftheriou - modern, deliberately obscure.

The melody on the other hand is very old. It originates in the Sefardic Jewish communities of the East: Jews driven from Spain by the very catholic kings, after 1492, who found refuge under islamic rule (at that particular time, Turkey was showing the rest of Europe a model of religious tolerance - that's History: "your turn will come").

Thessaloniki used to have a huge Jewish community, of Sefardic origin. It was destroyed by the Nazis.

But songs are tough. This one was rescued from oblivion first by Kougioumtzis, then again (with a traditional orchestration and the Sefardic Spanish lyrics) by Savina Yannatou on her 1995 record "Spring in Salonika". The title is then "Los bilbilicos", meaning "the little nightingales" - from the Turkish name of the bird, bülbül. It is a love song.

Kougioumtzis' version is originally from "Mikres Politeies", a laiko arrangement. With symphony orchestra, it is on the "live at the Mann auditorium" cd. The booklet here says "based on an old Hebrew prayer". I have no idea how this ties in with the rest of the history of the song...

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Thank u Geske

u're Amazing!

by the way..in the version of "Mann auditorium" cd"'s'at the last verse of this song..u can hear Dalaras (As Only He Knows) singing in hebrew,taking the words from the jewish prayer

i think that the best definition for the music of this song is PALIO LAIKO as written on MIKRES POLITIES or simply Traditional

:)

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So it really is a prayer? What kind of prayer and and what does it say?

Is it always sung (or can it also be spoken)? If it is sung, is always sung to this melody?

Does Dalaras have a foreign accent in Hebrew?

(fadi, I don't expect you to know all the answers... I just can not resist asking questions...)

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fadi, I don't expect you to know all the answers...

well

i didn't know anything before u asked...but i searched,asked friends, found and also learned something new

i beleive that if i don't know the Hebrew language,i couldn't find that

so

the song's analysis:

So it really is a prayer? What kind of prayer and and what does it say?

The song's content is parallel to the "grace" (prayer after a meal)

it's part of the "Saturday's ceremony" and they say it after the meal and before the "grace"

what Dalaras sings is one line (the line that opening the song,and it's also the "refrain") and it means:

"we eat,satiated and left behind from what god gave us (we had so much...) and we thank him for that"

Is it always sung (or can it also be spoken)? If it is sung, is always sung to this melody?

the lyricist in unkown

There is 12 verses of melodies and for the most popular one (the LADINO-The Sefarad Jews as u wrote) there is 93 performances (Dalaras in number 46 with Kouyoumtzis's adaptation)

Does Dalaras have a foreign accent in Hebrew?

Dalaras accent is PERFECT!!

when i put this song in my programme,the listeners didn't beleive that this is Dalaras and they thought this is an Israeli singer! (also in the other two songs he sings in hebrew "SHAI" and "YAD ANUGA"..he is perfect!)

I just can not resist asking questions

No problem at all,if u have any other questions feel free to write...

i never thought that i"ll "deal" with this kind of music and because of Dalaras i do

Amazing,e?!

:confused::)

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This song has a very beautiful melody, and we deal here with two versions of the music: one is an old Sephardic (Spanish, Ladino) love song. You can listen here

http://www.zemerl.com/cgi-bin/show.pl?titl...e+Nightingales)

(Savina Yannatou sings it, too, but I don't like her).

The lyrics in the song are a little different from those on that link

Los bilbilicos cantan | nightingales sing

sospiran del amor | and whisper about love

Y la pasion me mata | while passion kills me

mu(n)chigua mi dolor | and my pain is intolerable

Los bilbilicos cantan | nightingales sing

en el arbol de la flor | among the tree blossoms

Debasho se asentan | and under the tree sit

los que sufren del amor | those who suffer of love

It was already discussed that this melody was originated from a Hebrew prayer, but more likely it is the other way around: it came to a prayer book from the folk song (typical for Jewish prayer music - rabbis are so much absorbed with Talmudistic arguments that they allow all kinds of music to penetrate the prayer books (as long as it is not dance :wow: ).

The second version by Kougiumtzis is in different key: it's a song of awe, or maybe another kind of prayer - to someone greatly admired (while the first one is a quiet prayer - as someone said above, an after-meal prayer - adapted from a folk song).

Maybe too much blah-blah, but I always start from the music. And we know that Manos Eleftheriou wrote the lyrics for the existing melody.

What I noticed by listening to Dalaras: the Greek text in the forum (and on the site kithara.vu) is not correct: (BTW, the Mann booklet is the correct version - the translation "I lost you" is also correct, however, too vague) - the most important is

σε πηραν μια, σε πηραν δυο (οχι σε πηρα).

also, not so important το κερη (οχι απο κερι)

It's still not so clear - true, the song needs some effort for interpretation. Being a junior researcher, I still haven't read much of Eleftheriou B), but I've run a quick search in the forum and found some useful bits of information. I understand that as a great poet he can fit ideas and images in few lines - with the result that the meaning is not obvious. He's been always involved with the theater - therefore images in his poetry. It can be even more obscure for political reasons - the album Mikres Polities appeared just before the fall of junta. (At Easter - therefore, the Christ theme?)

M.Eleftheriou happened to be working with Theodorakis on an album Ta Laika at the time when junta came to power. Theodorakis was banned, exiled, arrested, exiled again. M.Eleftheriou waited for his album 8 years.

Another important piece I had to do a research for: first words of Christ (my Bible education very schetchy). When John the Baptist hesitated (who I am to baptize the Son of God?), Jesus responded with the words that can be understood as "We all have to fulfill our purpose". The mission of Christ started here.

Translation - interpretation:

With the first words of Christ

Who came to Jordan to be baptized,

I crowned you with those words

which are guarded by angels.

(Comment: you had a mission).

They took you once, they took you twice

they took you away blindfolded.

And on the stairs of the world (corridors of power ?)

I am trying to get news of you.

(you were arrested once, and again, disappeared, no news

they took you for interrogation, blindfolded)

I have that image: in the Universe as a candle

exposed to all the winds,

My fate is a trembling light (I am not that bold as you but I am not giving up)

And your mission is a hope as a growing tree of pomegranate.

(Pomegranate is associated with fertility and hope in oriental tradition, such as Armenian, and possibly with blood, also?).

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Marina, this is :wow:B):razz::music:B) GREAT. This is just BRILLIANT.

The only thing I have to add is that the pomegranate, in Greece, is quite likely to (also) mean Persefone, i.e. rebirth.

The only thing I can think of, to offer by way of thanks, is this: http://www.athina984fm.gr . If you would like to get to know mr. Eleftheriou in a slightly different way, you can listen to himself, on Saturday and Sunday,

*20:00-21:00: "Τα λόγια της αγάπης."Ερωτικά λόγια, λόγια αγάπης, λόγια απλά, διανθίζουν τις υπέροχες επιλογές του ποιητή - στιχουργού Μάνου Ελευθερίου.
(13:00-14:00 for you).

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Thanks, Geske.

I got a fresh idea about the rebirth. "I" might represent a country, image of a people as a whole - the idea of trembling flame in danger and of rebirth would make more sense.

There is a funny story about interpretations which I had read in a book about physics and physicists: one physicist specializing in experimental work was rushing along a corridor in a lab holding a fresh chart with his new measurement results. He runs onto another college who happens to be a theoretician (or theoreticist?). The first guy shows his chart for interpretation. The theoreticist suggests a brilliant and very logical explanation. However, oh boy! I am so sorry - says the forst guy: I showed you the chart accidentally bottom up. "No problem" - says the theoreticist and interprets the corrected chart in a no less logical way.

:

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The advantage of reality, over any description of reality, is that in reality all the descriptions and explanation, however contradictory, can be true at the same time. This is also the advantage of poetry over (most) physics :wow:

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It's true about physics, too - wave-particle duality, for example. It's not much difference between modern physics and poetry in terms of imagination (and curiosity) being necessary ingredient.

The same person who would put a book about physics and universe aside, will also glance at a poem saying "Oh, it's very poetic" (meaning "too much trouble to see what's inside").

I mean: nice to have around people who will go inside, like here.

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Exactly - that's why I said «(most) physics».

The best teacher I ever had at university was the guy who taught Quantum Mechanics - it's a tribute to his abilities that I ever passed it, 'cause it's not reasonnably within my abilities. We all adored him. And the revelation of Heisenberg and the "it doesn't have to be Either Or" was just that: revelation.

But I've always been in favour of calling that Metafysics rather than physics.

p.s. From "the first words of Christ..." to the uncertainty principle in three moves. HURRAY for the Dalaras forum!

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Γεια σας,

Μπαίνω κάπως αργά στη συζήτηση, αλλά θα ήθελα να προσθέσω μερικά λόγια για το εβραϊκό τραγούδι (ή ύμνος) που έχει την ίδια μελωδία με "Τα πρώτα λόγια". Υπάρχει σε δύο εκδοχές, σε Ladino (ισπανοεβραϊκά) ως "Los Bilbilicos" και σε εβραϊκά ως "Tzur Mi-chelo". Για την τελευταία έχω βρει το μερικές πληροφορίες που επιβεβαιώνουν αυτά που έχουν ήδη γράψει ο Fadi και η Μαρίνα.

This piece is part of the Shabbat Zemirot (Shabbat table songs) composed and compiled between the 11th and 16th centuries under the guidance of Rabbis Isaac Luria and Israel Najara. Utilizing singing, these songs are meant to reflect upon and praise the Shabbat. This particular melody comes from the Spanish Jewish heritage.

Εδώ είναι οι στίχοι στα εβραϊκα:

Tzur mi-shelo akhalnu barkhu emunai

savanu vhotarnu ki-dvar Adonai

Hazan et olamo, roenu avinu

Akhalnu mi-lakhmo u-mi-yeno shatinu

al ken nodeh li-shmo u-nhallelo bfinu

Amarnu vaninu ein kadosh kAdonai

Bshir vkol todah nevarekh lEloheinu

Al eretz hemdah tovah she-hinhil lavoteinu

U-mazon vtzedah hisbiah lnafsheinu

Hasdo gavar aleinu vemet Adonai

Rahem bhasdekha al amkha Tzureinu

Al Tziyon mishkan kvodekha zvul beit tifarteinu

U-ven David avdekha yavo vyigaleinu

Ruah apeinu mshiah Adonai

Yibaneh ha-mikdash ir Tziyon tmaleh

Vsham nashir shir hadash u-virnanah sham naaleh

Ha-rahaman ha-nikdash yitbarakh vyitaleh

Al kos yayin maleh kvirkat Adonai

Δε βρήκα μετάφραση, δυστυχώς!

Όσο για τη μελωδία, δεν πρέπει να είναι τόσο παλιά...απ' ότι ισχυρίζονται οι ερευνητές που ασχολούνται με τη μουσική των Σεφαραδιτών Εβραίων, οι μελωδίες αυτών των παραδοσιακών τραγουδιών είναι πολύ μεταγενέστερες, παρόλο που μερικοί από τους στίχους έχουν επιβιώσει από τον καιρό που οι Σεφαραδίτες Εβραίοι ακόμα ζούσαν στην Ισπανία (πριν το 1492). Η ερευνήτρια-τραγουδίστρια Judith Cohen γράφει συγκεκριμένα για το "Los Bilbilicos":

It's common to go on about Sephardic tunes

being brought out of medieval Spain along with (often apocryphal) keys

and whatever else could be carried. However, tunes like "Los Bilbilicos"

are much later than that and in any case we HAVE no documented Jewish music from medieval Spain or medieval anywhere else. I'm always vastly amused at people's solemn assurances that such and such a tune "definitely is from medieval Spain".

Έχω μια πολύ ωραία ηχογράφηση του Tzur Mi-shelo, που μπορώ να παραθέσω σε μορφή mp3, αν ενδιεφέρεται κανείς να την ακούσει. Το τραγουδάει η Ofri Eliaz στο σιντί της "Ladino Songs". Έχω επίσης μια ζωντανή ηχογράφηση με τον θαυμάσιο Ισραηλινό τραγουδιστή Itzik Kalah, μια ηχογράφηση με μια κάπως ελληνική χροιά. Στο τραγούδι αυτό ο Kalah συνοδεύεται από το γνωστό (στο Ισραήλ, εννοώ!) μπουζουξή Aris (!) Nahum, που ρίχνει κάτι όμορφες πενιές, κάτι που κάνει και στα υπόλοιπα τραγούδια αυτής της συναυλίας, που είναι γεμάτη από ελληνικά τραγούδια ερμηνευμένα στα εβραϊκά από τον Kalah. Και από αυτό το σινί μπορώ να στείλω μερικά κομμάτια, αν θέλετε.

Εύα

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Hi again,

I guess I should have written in English as well, since some members might not be entirely fluent in Greek!

Here is some additional information on "Ta prota logia" and its Jewish counterparts. There are actually two Jewish songs to this melody, one is the already mentioned "Los Bilbilicos", which is in Judeo-Spanish, and the other is in Hebrew, "Tzur Mi-Shelo". "Tzur Mi-Shelo" is a traditional Sabbath table song:

>This piece is part of the Shabbat Zemirot (Shabbat table songs) >composed and compiled between the 11th and 16th centuries under >the guidance of Rabbis Isaac Luria and Israel Najara. Utilizing singing, >these songs are meant to reflect upon and praise the Shabbat. This >particular melody comes from the Spanish Jewish heritage.

There are apparently several melodies used to accompany these ages-old Hebrew lyrics, and one of them is the Sephardic melody we also find in "Los Bilbilicos" and "Ta prota logia". If you scroll down a bit on this web side you'll find downloads with several "Tzur Mi-shelo" versions set to different melodies:

http://www.hacdalbany.com/tefilaschmidt2006.html

(note the quite apparent English pronunciation of the Hebrew lyrics on these clips!;-))

While googling I also found a lovely rendition of "Tzur Mi-shelo", taken from the Iraqi-Indian Jewish tradition. This is not a Sephardic melody (the Iraqi Jews have no connection to medieval Spain), although in Israel today "Sephardim" is often used to denote all Jews (about 50%of the population) who are of non-European descent (that is, those who have their roots in the Middle East/Moslem countries or in the Eastern Mediterranean).

http://www.longislandtraditions.org/artist...ic/musleah.html

As for the melody to the Sephardi version, the general consensus among researchers of Sephardi music is that none of the melodies of the traditional/popular songs which have been collected and recorded can be dated back to medieval Spain. The large majority of Sephardi melodies are much later and most often taken from the local traditions of the countries/areas where the Sephardi Jews lived after the expulsion (the Ottoman empire, North Africa)...the "500-years old Spanish heritage" is actually a bit of a myth! According to Israeli musicologist and Ladino expert Edwin Serrousi, the melody to "Los bilbilicos"/"Tzur Mi-shelo" might even be a Greek or Bulgarian liturgical melody (this came up when the song was discussed on a forum for Balkan music where I participate)!

I have two quite lovely renditions of "Tzur Mi-shelo", both with a quite prominent Greek/Eastern Mediterranean flavour. One is by Ofri Eliaz, the other is a 'live' rendition by the great Israeli singer Itzik Kalah. In Kalah's version, you'll even hear some bouzouki licks, thanks to Aris (!) Nahum, one of Israel's most well-known bouzouki players. If you're interested, I'd be glad to post these renditions as mp3s.

As for the Dalaras-Israel-Israeli music connection, it was quite prominently featured in the ERT documentary on Greek music in Israel ("Mousiki tou kosmou"), which was aired in May 2006. There was a longish interview with Dalaras about his Israeli experience, as well as clips from the concert with the Philharmonic. In the same program, a very popular Israeli artist of Sephardi Greek origin, Yehuda Poliker, also referred several times to Dalaras and their collaborations. Poliker, who started out as a rock artist, has recorded several songs from Dalaras' repertoire in Hebrew, on albums that sold platinum in Israel. This is actually a very common practice-tradition in Israeli popular music, mostly in what the Israelis call Musica Mizrahit (the music of Sephardi/Oriental Jews). In this genre you'll find literally hundreds of (often very enjoyable) adaptations of Greek laika songs (including many Dalaras songs). So I guess when Dalaras recorded a popular Sephardi tune, he really went full circle!

Hope I didn't tire you all with these historical-musicological excursions!;-)

Eva

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Poliker, who started out as a rock artist, has recorded several songs from Dalaras' repertoire in Hebrew, on albums that sold platinum in Israel.  This is actually a very common practice-tradition in Israeli popular music, mostly in what the Israelis call Musica Mizrahit (the music of Sephardi/Oriental Jews). In this genre  you'll find literally hundreds of (often very enjoyable) adaptations of  Greek laika songs (including many Dalaras songs). So I guess when Dalaras recorded a popular Sephardi tune, he really went full circle!

That was quite interesting!

Thank you, Eva B)

As matter of fact, another popular Israeli musician, Haim Moshe, has many those Greek tunes in his repertoir, including the famous Toda on the tune of Ola Kala - the lyrics has nothing to do with the original stixoi (this tune I heard first from him, not from Dalaras :) ).

As for the going in circles regarding adaptation of music for prayers: another song from a Haim Moshe CD is Hala, Hala put on the tune Tragoudistis (my knowledge of Hebrew is quite limited, but I suspect that the Hebrew lyrics have something to do with Shabbat (maybe I am mistaken).

As for the 500 year Spanish heritage being a myth - I remember reading in a book about Salonika Jews that in 18th century when the first Spanish ambassadors and travellers started to appear in this part of the Ottoman Empire, they were amazed at local Jews speaking a pure Castilian language in daily life - it survived at least 3 centuries, why those doubts about survival of music? It's not that long in historical terms. On the other hand, borrowing tunes from the Balcan people and viceversa is quite possible.

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Hi Vitaly,

You wrote:

>As matter of fact, another popular Israeli musician, Haim Moshe, has >many those Greek tunes in his repertoir, including the famous Toda on >the tune of Ola Kala - the lyrics has nothing to do with the original stixoi (this tune I heard first from him, not from Dalaras ).

Glad you mentioned Haim Moshe, he is one of my favourite Israeli singers, with a great voice in the Jannis Parios/Poulopoulos vein. Moshe must be the king of Greek-Israeli music, he has done many adaptations/covers of Greek songs, which are often very well performed. Of course, he also has a lot of original Israeli material in his large repertoire, both traditional Yemenite songs (his family comes from Yemen) and more pop-oriented stuff. Another good Dalaras adaptation is his version of "Me telioses". Here is a clip with Moshe and another famous Yemenite artist, Yoav Yitzhak, performing 'live':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXb_GqyzO1s

If you look to the right on this youtube page, you'll find many other video clips with Israeli "Oriental" artists...many with tunes of Greek origin!

With regards to the Hebrew lyrics to these songs, I think that most often they don't have any direct connection to the Greek lyrics, simply because the Israeli lyricists are not fluent in Greek. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter that much-after all, the fine lyrics that Greek "stichourgi " wrote for some of he Greek "Indian" covers of the 60's still make these songs very enjoyable, although the Greek text don't have the same content as the original Indian (Urdu) one.

>As for the going in circles regarding adaptation of music for prayers: >another song from a Haim Moshe CD is Hala, Hala put on the tune >Tragoudistis (my knowledge of Hebrew is quite limited, but I suspect >that the Hebrew lyrics have something to do with Shabbat (maybe I am >mistaken).

From what I have read, Musica Mizrahit texts often take their inspiration from traditional religious material, and sometimes even incorporate whole passages from religious texts of various kinds. One example is the well-known "Shabechi Yerushalyaim" with music my Avihu Medina, which takes its text from the Psalms:

http://www.hebrewsongs.com/song-shabechiye...erushalayim.htm

There is actually a Greek connection to this song (I'm not totally O.T. here!)...as seen on the "Mousiki tou kosmou" documentary, Glykeria has made this song "her own" and always performs it for her Israeli audiences (there's a great version on her Israeli Philharmonic CD).

>As for the 500 year Spanish heritage being a myth - I remember reading >in a book about Salonika Jews that in 18th century when the first >Spanish ambassadors and travellers started to appear in this part of >the Ottoman Empire, they were amazed at local Jews speaking a pure >Castilian language in daily life - it survived at least 3 centuries, why >those doubts about survival of music? It's not that long in historical >terms. On the other hand, borrowing tunes from the Balcan people and >viceversa is quite possible.

You're absolutely right concerning language and culture, which were preserved to an amazing degree by the Sephardi Jews. The researchers' point is that there are no documented Soanish medieval sources for the *music*, that is, the melodies. The melodies which have been identified are all much later, and mostly taken/influenced from the musical traditions of the countries where the Sephardim migrated to.

Eva

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