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francois

Το ελληνικό πρόσωπο του Γιώργου Νταλάρα

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And in case that anyone else than Hatzidakis dared to write such stupid things I am quite sure that all people would laugh.

Oxi!! That's not that simply.

- The story is a kind fairy-tale, and a good one, but an ironical one, too (Dalaras whistling on his fame as if it were something irrelevant at all.

- At least since the St. Francesco (standing naked in front if his own father and giving him his own clothes back) is the surprising gesture a sign of becoming free from any dependencies you have in your life.

- "Since he was born" is a literaric figure with long tradition, so begin stories about many gods, but about Gargantua and Pantagruel as well.

To be precise, according to the Koran tradition (Sura 19, 24 and next) Jesus was talking to his mother immediately, after he was born, and a similar story is known about Buddha and his mother Maja, too.

- Just remember the already existing topic "Dalaras a saint", a clear sign of a fact, that he is sometimes seen in this very special light of adoration, not everybody of the great artists can reach and deserve.

- Why not to read this story, how it probably was intended: not with perfect seriousness, but with smile and whistling?

- Please, remember, " Balanda...." ("San palio sinema", the most sunny song of Giorgo Dalara I know,), being a Manos Xatzidakis' song, is also a part of this recording (N. 13) and completes in a good way the story Geske gave us. And some of the topics of the song and of the story are the same.

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Btw, Geeske, I think it's important to know that Hadjidakis was gay. It helps us understand much of his work. It is often very interesting to know that he was gay.

Do you think it's that important, François? I mean an artist is much more than sexual orientation. If we go to another area of art, say, literature, I don't think you'll appreciate more a book like "Picture of Dorian Gray" by knowing that the writer was gay. It's important to know -but it's not the only factor- in my opinion, the period in which it was written. Aesthetically speaking. And maybe historically, in the case of Hatzidakis. But it's just my point of view.

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- Please, remember, " Balanda...." ("San palio sinema", the most sunny song of Giorgo Dalara I know,), being a Manos Xatzidakis' song, is also a part of this recording (N. 13) and completes in a good way the story Geske gave us. And some of the topics of the song and of the story are the same.

That's a very good insight, Olga. I had not made the connection between that song- that I love- and this Hatzidakis's story.

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Gays in the art history?

Caravaggio is told to have been one ("The victorious Amor").

Michelangelo was supposed to be almost for sure.

Shakespeare even (Sonnett 20).

Konstantinos Kavafis.

A good companion for Manos Hatzidakis.

Therefore we must not necessarily think, it is something bad in one's life.

It may be not important or irrelevant for one's work. Perhaps it would be the best way to deal with that matter?

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EXACTLY THAT, WHAT I SAID. I need no credit.

What I also think is that it is not being put in the code of mental ilnesses for compromise reasons, since there have been, are and will be great personalities and artist who are gays, which does not prove a thing regarding them being mentally sick since mental sickenss does not prevent the person to be active artistically or intellectualy and this being so because it is their emotional life that is sick, not the intelligence....there have been many otherwise mental sick people, not gays, who were active and productive in the fields of mental capacities that are not sick in those people. Being gay or straight is in the brain, of course, and human brain is developed to be either male looking for female and vice versa. When it is not the case, the brain is not ok, den pai kala. Simple as that. Hypocrysia is to say anything else but this.

This is what I believe and don't stand the gays, not because they are sick, but becayse thay call it sexual orientation. Throwing dust in our eyes. :)

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And in case that anyone else than Hatzidakis dared to write such stupid things I am quite sure that all people would laugh.

Oxi!! That's not that simply.

[....etc.]

:blink: Bravo Olga! You are soooo educated. ;)

Thank you for your explanations. Surely such comments are more convincing for me than the mere assertion that the text by Hatzidakis is poetical (and therefore it is automatically good).

I must admit that I (and not only I, as it seems) did not take into account the possible ironical touch of the story. But anyway, it remains a way of writing and thinking I do not like at all.

And when you refer to Jesus "who was talking to his mother immediately, after he was born" (as to Buddha etc.) and to the topic "Dalaras a saint", you realize too that the whole story has to do with a type of (ironical?) "θεοποίηση" ("deification" in English?) of Dalaras. And if this is indeed not meant seriously but ironically (by Hatzidakis), I wonder: What is it good for? Why does Hatzidakis tell this story? Is it a way of criticism of Dalaras' fans or of Dalaras himself or whatever? Where are the boarders among ironical and serious parts in this story? etc.etc.

The whole personality of Hatzidakis is too strange for my (may be too simple-minded :lol: ) personality and taste. You all can call me completely stupid but I enjoy much more to listen to a good song with (let's say) Antzela Dimitriou than reading such artificial stories. :)B)

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the whole story has to do with a type of (ironical?) "θεοποίηση" ("deification" in English?) of Dalaras. And if this is indeed not meant seriously but ironically (by Hatzidakis), I wonder: What is it good for? Why does Hatzidakis tell this story? Is it a way of criticism of Dalaras' fans or of Dalaras himself or whatever? Where are the boarders among ironical and serious parts in this story? etc.etc.

Hallo MIchael,

a short morning answer:

this story could tell about a need of healthy distance to the own work and fame, an attitude needed by an artist, not only Giorgos Dalaras. Who was just beginnig his career in this time, as the story was told.

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I think that being gay is a kind of mental illness. :(

I used to enjoy this istoselida without being registered, but when I saw this, I decided to react. I am gay, and I don't think I am mentally ill! :mad: I have a normal life, with my family, my boyfriend, my studies, my friends, and I don't understand why we should be treated like this. Aman pia m'aftes tis xazomares!

I am a student in Thessaloniki and I like Dalaras very much. I'd even say that he is my favorite singer. I saw him 5 times. He is so great, what voice, and this album 'To eliniko prosopo' is really very nice. I am happy I was born and can listen to his voice.

I hope this website will have a very long life. I think it's very interesting and useful.

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I am gay, and I don't think I am mentally ill! :mad:

Don't worry, friend, I am not gay, but I have many gay friends and I know they are normal people, and very good friends too. But it's not a place to defend the rights of gays. Maybe a topic in "general discussion" would be nice. :mad::(:D

You all know the song I like in TO ELLINIKO PROSOPO, don't you? It's "Enas kompos i hara mou". It's so much better than in "LIVE and UNPLUGGED". My little sister still hates it. I think she is uncivilized!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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The fact that homosexuals are human beings like all others, with the same rights as all others, is NOT a subject for discussion. It's a fact. Anyone who doubts it should get a brain check-up, or maybe read some Greek history.

I am totally disgusted by the incredible stupidity and lack of imagination and intelligent understanding displayed in this topic. Except for a few remarks from Andreas, Gerasimos, and Antoine, it makes me wish I'd never posted that purple post.

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I agree with you,Geeske,and I hate it to conclude that in a forum like this,a text like you found and gave us,was so misunderstood and mistreated.I suggest we stop this discussion here and now!

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I am totally disgusted by the incredible stupidity and lack of imagination and intelligent understanding displayed in this topic. Except for a few remarks from Andreas, Gerasimos, and Antoine, it makes me wish I'd never posted that purple post.

(In this topic developed two disussions in the meantime: One about Hatzidakis' text and another [off topic] about "gay = 'ill' ? " etc. Your critics, Geske, seems to refer to both discussions. My reply has to do with what you write about the first one.)

First and foremost you should have mentioned Olga as exception. I think she wrote the most substantial comments on behalf of the "supporters" of Hatzidakis' story.

And personally I appreciated that Olga - despite of her knowledge - did not get angry about the (assumed) stupidity, lack of imagination etc. of others. :mad:

I think that when a text leads to so many misunderstandings and confusion (as the story by Hatzidakis) we should consider that to blame are not (only) the readers and their "stupidity" but (also) its author and his way of writing.

And that leads me to Olga's "morning answer":

a short morning answer:

this story could tell about a need of healthy distance to the own work and fame, an attitude needed by an artist, not only Giorgos Dalaras. Who was just beginnig his career in this time, as the story was told.

But to my mind the text by Hatzidakis is exactly the opposite of "healthy distance to the own [= here: Dalaras'] work and fame" - except when you read the story completely as something ironical. But then it would be sheer irony/sarcasm about Dalaras. And I cannot imagine that this was Hatzidakis' intention.

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Thank you, Michael. Very much indeed.

For now this:

Irony is not only and not necessarily sarcasm.

I must have looked to my dictionary of literaric terms,a nd:

IRONY:

hidden mocking (gibe), light derision in an apparently appreciating opinion.

SARCASM: malicious irony, nasty mocking, bitter derision.

And, if irony was there, so surely not concerning the person of GIorgos Dalaras himself, but the matters of fame and artist's achievements in general (btw. a very vivid topic now and again here in the Forum itself).

Perhaps we could consider another terms: PARODY and GROTESQUE, not necessarily making a full litearic analyse of Xatzidaki's nice story. Who, anyway, has to do with literature and poetry (Michael, I liked, too, the short and simple sentence of Francois you quoted above). But the discussion showed a need to develop these matters, then I tried).

Geske , I am sure you were angry about this another part of appearing discussion there, like Marijke did.

I am sure, you remembered, like me, it was already discussed once and I think, you meant this very part of the here developed topic?

And, Geske, not everybody in the Forum must be, after all, like you and me, a bit more familiar with literaric art and it's species, etsi?

Michael, please try to explain to me, what you meant now by "exactly the opposite....". This is an answer what I did not expect so very much.

Danke.

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I don't agree with the idea of parody, Olga, because for parody to happen ( as we're talking about a text )) there must always be a background text to be parodized and to which, in an indirect way, tribute is paid. Well, of course I don't have all the data on Hatzidakis, so maybe I'm wrong.

I would agree more to the metaphorical interpretation with an ironic twist. Let's see that Hadzidakis is the manager of heavenly bodies and he speaks of an earthly Sirion that could not contain the birth of a true star- or let's say the moment when D.'s 4 faces merged into one: the moment of To Eliniko Prosopo - or in other words, the moment when Dalaras's voice and singing grew so big that it expanded metaphorically the walls of the Sirion to the whole Athens.

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Irony is not only and not necessarily sarcasm.

I must have looked to my dictionary of literaric terms,a nd:

IRONY:

hidden mocking (gibe), light derision in an apparently appreciating opinion.

SARCASM: malicious irony, nasty mocking, bitter derision.

Yes, of course Olga. I wanted to use the english equivalent of the german word "Spott"; I did not know the correct english term, looked up in an online dictionary and chose both concepts as I was not sure which one would fit better.

And, if irony was there, so surely not concerning the person of Giorgos Dalaras himself, but the matters of fame and artist's achievements  in general

But in his story he permanently speaks about Dalaras.

Michael, please try to explain to me, what you meant now  by "exactly the opposite....". This is an answer what I did not expect so very much.

Well, you wrote that "this story could tell about a need of healthy distance to the own work and fame" and I wanted to say that I can see no distance at all (towards Dalaras' work and his fame) when Hatzidakis writes about his "reaching out towards the stars" and that "He turned into a star [of course in the sense of "star" we can see on the sky - I know]. We rushed next to him, all of us, for support during his transformation." etc.etc.

Hatzidakis creates (though in a very confusing and indefinite way) something mythological, something metaphysical around the person of Dalaras and this is for me no "healthy distance" towards him (and his work).

And something else: Where happened this (metaphysical) "αστροποίησή του" (= the "becoming a star" of Dalaras)?? Of course in Hatzidakis' theatre (called "Sirion"):

"So I invited him at the Sirion, and one night as he was singing, [...] all four faces became o n e. He turned into a star."

"Τον κάλεσα στον Σείριο, κι ένα βράδυ εκεί που τραγουδούσε, [...] τα τέσσερα πρόσωπα γίναν έ ν α. Είχε γίνει άστρο."

This can easily be interpreted ("misunderstood"??) as vanity ("Eitelkeit") of Hatzidakis, the lack of "healthy distance" towards his own person too:

All of Dalaras' faces (= qualities) become one, he metamorphoses to something "higher" / "brighter" (= a star [on the sky]) and the whole transformation takes place while he sings in my theatre. And of course this "αστρική περίοδος του Νταλάρα" (this period when Dalaras is [something like] a star on the sky) is identical with the 22 evenings he sang in my theatre:

"From then on, he sang for 22 nights, with no break, with no interruption. This time of stars ['this time of being a star', I would say], itself, is contained in this album."

"Από τότε τραγούδησε εικοσιδύο βραδυές, χωρίς διάλειμμα και διακοπή. Αυτή την αστρίκη περίοδο του Νταλάρα περιέχει ο δίσκος αυτός."

Ooooch! :mad::(

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If Michael does not understand what mr Hatzidakis writes, I am inclined to think that the cause in Michael, not in mr Hatzidakis' writing. As for the explanations and interpretations I've seen in this topic, most of them seem to me either irrelevant, or grossly beside the point, or so self-evident as be nonsensical.

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So Geske, why don't you tell us your interpretation of Hatzidakis' text? (Especially as you are obviously so sure about what's the meaning of it.)

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Geske, yes, I'd like to see your interpretation of the text too. Just remember texts are supposed to have many different meanings according to the reader... But you do know that, so why on earth are you so upset?

And, frankly, it's the first time I hear about this particular writer. When I read your post, it didn't seem literally true - but it could have been, especially in the 60s or the 70s. So, I too wondered about how related to any specific fact that was or else what kind of meaning the author intended to express with it. Now, if I start thinking of meanings, I'm sure I could find a hundred and justify them... That's what a literary text is all about. Or is it not?

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I said nothing about omofilofilus and other mentally sick people having lesser rights than the normal once. Of course they do. ENOITE.

Want THEM to teach your 6 years' old BOY at school?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Want YOUR son to become one of THEM, since it is SO normal?!

"NORMAL LIFE", ha, ha!!! :lol:

Na 'ste kala, GAYS ke their SUPPORTERS!!! :(

GREEK HISTORY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, SINCE MENTAL ILLNESSES IPIRHAN TOTE TO IDIO OPOS SIMERA. ANTHROPI DEN ALAZUN, MENTALLY SICK OR NOT.

And what about some DUTCH sinhroni history?...

Btw, I love Alkistis Protopsalti ke Dimitra Galani who both state lesbians, and I consider them both, members of our five ladies top singers in Greece. ..Gia na xerume ti leme. :D

............

I end this topic re gays...not being worth my while...because I started it. But I don't regret, OR APPOLOGIZE. INTEGRITY.

Last word, once homosexuals tried in BELGRADE, SERBIA, to organize one of their 'happenings' or 'poria' or 'protest' or whatever, KE EFAGAN XILO APO SERVUS MEN....SUCH are Serbs and Mavrovunii, and I guess, KRITIKI. MEN. Because there are men and women.

Gia sas, from a woman. :mad:

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Geske,

I see it irritated you as a whole. Why? It is after all a literaric work, what can be interpreted and felt in many ways. Exactly like music.

But there was Nighthawk the first to express this opinion.

I protested yesterday, because it was or seemed to be - only one sentence of it being noticed - a great harm to this nice (yes, nice) history as a whole.

Michael, jetzt ist mir klar: I am sure, we were talking about two fully different perspectives in the text:

1. the perspective of a writer and the audience, in our case we can identificate him with Hatzidakis and those ones listenig to the concert

2. the perspective of a whistling hero, who is at the phrase of metamorphose, being above all the opinions of his "audience", not even paying many attention to it. Just afterwards he is able to say "Geia sas, paidia", but this from an another perspective, of mountains and sky (ior even: heaven, if you will).

Similar to this in Romantic born (or rather: developed) perspective, like I quoted once not long ago:

"Solitude - am I a singer for the folks?"

In one of the last interwiews, this from "Elle:" we found this (thanks, Geske, for your translation :mad:):

"I would have undertaken much more for Giorgos and less for Dalaras. I don't like Dalaras. I am not him".

Is that story of a whistling hero not at least a good complement to these words? And Manos Hatzidakis had surely fun to name himself Manager ofHeavenly Bodies as this one, who saw or even supported the birth of a new star.

PS. Celeste, parody does not necessarily have a particular text as basis, parody can be connected with a kind of (literaric) figure, a (literaric) style, motives, species. I took this (literaric) into brackets, because it can be found in different kinds of art.

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Want THEM to teach your 6 years' old BOY at school?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn it, I have to answer this one! I do have a son who will go to school next year and I don't give a damn if his teacher is gay, straight or bissexual. It's his competence I'm interested in!

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PS. Celeste, parody does not necessarily have a particular text as basis, parody can be connected with a kind of (literaric) figure, a (literaric) style, motives, species. I took this (literaric) into brackets, because it can be found in different kinds of art.

You have a point here, Olga. But what would be parodized?

And Geske, I don't see why the literary analysis should angry you at all. After all, the text is not yours, it's quite worse when our own words are misinterpreted, which is not the case, right?

There are other things that upset me in this topic, but it has to do with different matters and I couldn't shut my mouth- even if they're off topic.

However, I think it's interesting to see how a single text can lead to so many different points of view. And yes, I would like to know your version, because it will also be only a version of the story. The only one who could give us the definite answer would be the author himself.

Be cool.

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