Servika Tragoudia to clap along too

[Christo 9]

Hey People

How about we take a poll here:

 and vote on what are some of are favorite 2/4 melodies

  (Hasoposervika & Hasapika Trayoudia) from Dalaras that we all cheer and clap along too in concerts.

 These are probably some of his best songs he performs that gets everyone clapping and singin along with.

 I'll start first

since I should be the one first to cast the first vote.

   How modest of me,

 LOLs

From Hasapika Melodies

1. Ahh Helidono Mou

2. Ola Kala

3. Natane to 21

4. Kapou Niktoni

5. O Ouranos Fevi Varis

6. Eitan Pente Eitan Exi

7. Tis Makrines Tis Thalasses

 And from Hasoposervika songs(Fast 2/4)

1. H Elei kai Eleutheroi Orai

2. Ta Pedia Tis Aminas

3. Ta Fantasmata

4. Mana Den Fitepsame

5. Deka Palikaria

6. Stin Doulia kai Ston Agona

7. H Agia Methi

Come on people don't be shy

 lets see them coming,,,

  :cool:  :cool:  :cool:  :cool:

[nikolas 86]

Christo, how sure are you that all of us can recognize which songs are hasapika or hasaposervika?    Anyway, pepromeno is a good hasapiko...Also, Oloi oi rebetes tou ntounia, to mention only those that come instantly to my mind.

[Niki 0]

Good point Nikola... I 'm one of those who have no idea...    However, the songs mentioned are very nice!

[Vasilis 0]

From hasapika I like most:''Natane to 21","Itane aprilis minas","Taksidi sta Kithira","Ego milo ki esi eisai allou","Ena tragoudi gia tin Eleni F","Tis dikeosinis ilie " and "Pepromeno".

From hasaposevika I love "Oi eleuthteroi ki oraioi" which is one of my favourite songs.

[Christo 9]

 

Well it seems as if I mistook the conception that everyone here knows what Hasapika and Hasaposervika songs are.

 I really have no other way to interpret them

musically that is as

 they are in the rhythm and time signature  of 2/4 beat.

 you can clap to the beat or rhythm and click your fingers back and forth  in 4 continous counts per measure such as:  1, 2 ,3, 4

1, 2, 3, 4    etc., etc.,

 or tap your foot up and down straight without stopping or speeding and not slowing down the tapping of your foot.  Thats the best accurate description I can tell you of the Hasapika 2/4 melodies.

 

 The Hasaposervkia songs gradually get faster and faster at the end of the song.

 sort of like building up to a climax(no pun intented) and end with a big crescendo.

  Can't say much more then that,

those who contributed to their favorite songs here know what I'm talking about, and thanks for writing.

 Seems like I'm always to technical here for everyone.

Probably because I'm a musician myself so I need to explain in common terms as to what i"m referring too.

   Hope this helps everyone.

[nikolas 86]

Christo you are indeed an expert and I can't say anything. However, my tiny experience says that tsifteteli is also 2/4 and balos is also 2/4 and many songs of Dalaras are in those two categories...

[Geske 37]

Great subject, Christo, though I admit I'm not a great fan of clapping along, as such.

ANyway, your question is indeed over my head - I've only just about learned to tell 2/4 from 7/8, and am not very certain even about that...

Those who do know what you're talking about could help those who don't by giving lots of examples, please! I mean lots, not just two-three but a couple dozen. And don't feel you have to stop at the hasaposerviko and the hasapiko, but include the tsifteli, the mbalo, and all the others as well. I don't mind knowing what I'm listening to

[Micki 1]

Not only to clap along to, also to dance on, hasapiko, hasapiserviko, tsiftetιli (with and without covered belly ), I've done it, I loved it, still love it. Also kalamatiano and that fast Cretan dance and ... and ... ach, in a second I'll start again.

Micki

[Niki 0]

Geeske, you are right! Cristo and all of you, we need examples for as many types you can...

[Christo 9]

Hi everyone

   and Happy New Year

 Boy you guys surprised me

At the time I wrote this letter,  I had just presumed everyone knew the Greek Rhythms (and we all know what happens when you assume right?)

 Anyhow, I didn't get too many feedback responses but

 it could have been with the holidays upon us and so forth,

But from here on, I will try to put down the meaning of the Greek Rhythms in "Layman's terminology.

 Something eveyone can understand even if someone is not Musically inclined.

  To give an example

 Maybe Nikolas

 

  Hello  there Nikolas  

 if your reading this message can start a new thread

for Type or style of Rhythms per Greek Dalaras Repoitoire (songs)

   Or we can keep it going in here.

      It really doesnt matter.

i.e.

  1. 'To Pepromeno' &

  2. Eyo Ime Edo kai Si Ise Allou'

  3. 'Mana Mou Ellas'

   are other examples of slow Hasipika.

 Micki since you like Tsiftetelia

 and me too by the way never get enough of them

  Love Sirta (Rubas) and Zembekika too btw.

 some examples of Tsiftetelia

    which by the way is 4/4 time

 are:

   1. 'O Tragoudistis'  

   2.'Fengari Hlomo',  

   3. 'Sto Aman Sto Giati'

 

 Kalamatiana:

    which is 7/8 time

    two exampls comes to mind is:

   

 1. 'Ama Vrehi Pare Umbrella'

      from the cd participation  

              "An Zousan H Arhaioi"

  2. 'Handra Sto Komboloi Sou'  

        from the participation cd

               "Otan Anthisoun Paschalies"

 and with the Mpalos styles (slow 2/4)

 one best example is

  from Nikolas download on the old site:

                   "Kykladitokos Balos'

     where Dalaras performs a wonderful Amane with his voice

       similar to that of Parios rendition of

                   'Oraia Pou'ne Tin Auvi'

        from his cd

                    "Ta Nisiotika".

 I'll post more examples

   as people ask for more songs.

[Geske 37]

Christo, how about this: suppose you take a whole record (for example Ο άσφαλος που τρέχει) and write for each song (where appropriate, that is), what its rythm is?

[Christo 9]

WHheew :wow:

  Geeske

 now there is a challenge!!!!

 Actually as hard as that sounds it's not all that bad.

I can't do it now though I'm at work

later on this week I will attempt too.

One thing I can tell you though that there are alot of Western Influences on the cd

so

that means mostly their composed of Rock and Ballad Rhythms which are all derived in 4/4 time.

 

 The complete song breakdown will further wait for my next letter to follow.

 

[Niki 0]

Geeske great idea! Cristo, if you could make me understand the rythmes, I'll owe you big time!!!  

[Christo 9]

    Ok consider it a done deal

 but it will take some time to do.

 I'll try to implement it as best as I can

  this weekend.

[nikolas 86]

Christo, you can start the topic yourself, it will be great!

Although I am not an expert, I would like to add to the discussion my view. When we refer to a rhythm of a melody, we mean the smallest part of the melody that seems to repeat itself. And if it is 2/4 or 4/4 or 5/16 or or or or (greek music might be the wealthiest in the world as far as rhythms are concerned), anyway the first number (the numerator) means that during this repeated part of the melody, we 'hear' two or four or five or etc knocks of the music. I think knocks is a bad word but I hope you understand what I mean.

Christo, I believe that fast hasapika don't exist. Hasapiko has to be slow anyway... This is its identity.

As for examples, one tsifteteli is the song Pou 'nai ta xronia. I like this discussion! Bravo Christo!

[Geske 37]

Please do go on. I think maybe I'm beginning to hear a little bit of something.

[Andreas 0]

I might be totally off here, but as I recollect Pou'nai ta xronia is in 9/8 and hence is not a tsifte-teli (which is in 4/4). A tsifte-teli usually can be recognized on the beats which lies on the 2'nd and 7'nd eight in the measure. (like: pam PAM    pa pam   PAM  ).

1   2  3  4   5  6  7  8

If that made sense to anyone, great, if not then clarifications can be made.

Andreas

[Michael 2]

Maybe that my impression is completely wrong, but me too the song "Pounai ta xronia" does not remind tsifteteli but something like ... karsilamas (???).

[Geske 37]

Yes, I was going to ask, if not a tsifteteli, then what _is_ my beloved Που 'ναι τα χρόνια ?

And, Andreas, please, I think I see what you mean, but I when I try to hear it in the examples so far (O tragoudistis and Sto aman sto yiati), I don't seem to get it. Maybe some more examples? Or possibly a hint as to where to start counting?

[Andreas 0]

Start count on ..go in the sentence Ego ime..., and you might hear a drumbeat right after the o. That's the second eight in the measure and the sevents coincides with the tra in tragoudistis. It is not that there is no beat on the first eight, but rather that the second eight is very accentuated compared to a straight 2(4)/4 rythm. The beats are:

E-go im'-  ena     tra   goudi-       sti-     s

 /.   .      .   .      .     /.   .      .    .      .    /

  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8

[Niki 0]

Pou nai ta xronia, is a karsilamas. I'm possitive about this... And Andreas, keep explaining...    

[Geske 37]

Andreas... I got it!

on my fingers, slowly, but got it - I wish you could see the surprised look on my face, you'd laugh yourself sick!

How about this for an example: Πήρε φωτιά το Κορδελιό (from Μικρά Ασία - may I be allowed it, even though it's not Dalaras who sings it?). In the chorus the word tsifteteli gets the beat exactly like you explain.

Next dance please!! I'd love to hear about the karsilamas but 9/8 sounds... eh... complex?

Oh, and the zeimbekiko doesn't seem to have been mentionned here yet - what does that count as, please?

[nikolas 86]

How to count...even musicians get confused sometimes, wouldn't we? anyway. 2/4 and 4/4 is not the point. Both can be counted for the same song. But the traditional tsifteteli is considered a 2/4 but indeed that has to do with how fast the beat is. (not sure that this is the right word for παλμός). In its traditional form, it is going like 1/16 1/8 1/16 1/8 1/8 but it could also be 1/8 1/4 1/8 1/4 1/4.

As for zeimpekika and karsilamades, both are 9/8 with diferent analysis. Karsilamas is 9/8, going like 2 2 2 3 and zeimpekika differ in the place where this 3 is. It is not in the same place for all.

Take the album 'Ta tragoudia mou'. Pente xronia dikasmenos is a karsilamas, Stin alana is a zeimpekiko while Oi kyvernhseis peftoune ma h agaph menei is a tsifteteli.

[Christo 9]

 :sarcasm:

  WHoaa!!!  slow down there people, you gusy are getting way ahead of me

  1st,

     to Nikolas a thank you for allowing me to contribute to these discussions and as I will begin a new thread shortly to Geeske's request.

 2nd,

  though I'm not certain as what Nikolas means by traditioanl Tsifteteli in 2/4 time

  I am certain though that the beat to count it off is 4/4 time

     i.e.   1,2 & 3, 4   1,2 & 3,4

      very similar to the example Andreas already gave us such as:

    Poom Pam, pam Poom pam  __   Poom Pam, pam Poom Pam

  if this makes any sense you can see how I derive 4/4 time out of this.

 3rd

     THe 9/8s rhythms are broken down into these classifications:

   1.  The ZEMBEKIKO  

        (1,2 & 3,4_5,6 & 7,8,9)

   2.  KARSILEMAS:

        1 2, 1 2, 1 2, 1 2 3

          or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

           or 1  2  3  4  5  6

           This is also a bit difficult to explain

            but its basically a group consisting of (3 two's and 1 three)

       hence the one-two, one-two, one-two, one-two-three count.

       And "Pou'ne Ta Xronia"     by Kouyoumtzis is surely the best example of this from Dalaras frist cd

  as is the song:

       "Ta Vasana Den Leyonte"   by Kaldaras

           from the cd '45 Strofes'

    Lost yet?

    3.   KAMILERIKO:

          This is another derivation of the Karsilemas rhytm with the exception  its played on a much slower tempo.

          Some examples of this

      are:

         "Stou Thoma To Mayazi"

           from the cd 'Live Recordings with Xarhakos'

              and

           "H Mantona H Salonikia"

              from the cd 'Kalos Tous'

  NOTE:

     Some Tsiftetelia believe it or not come close to the Kamileriko beat hence the reason & confusion of classifying it as 9/8

    Some song examples of this would be  'Pezoun Ta Baghlamadakia' by Hristakis or Tsaousakis

    and   'H Manges den Oi Parhoun Pia'  by Alexiou

   

   4. APTALIKOS:     this could probably be classified as 9/4

                 and  This one is yet the hardest to explain

       because its even harder to count

        and is played the least.

 With that said its best broken down

  as  1 2 3 4&, 5 6 7 8&,  1 2 3 4&, 5 6 7 8&

          Like I said difficult to count off.

         One song Dalaras sings an Aptalikos beat is in:

     "PAPATZIS"

       from the cd participation:  'Emeis OI Ellhnes'

and lastly

4th,

   I stop here for now because its late and I'm tired

 but the project for the new cd is still on its way

   That one is going to be difficult to count off the beats on every song  so at best I will just name briefly the style of rhythm as they are all not contemporay Greek Rhtyhms but of English, Latin and Jazz rhythms.

[nikolas 86]

Christo

If you notice, your analysis of the rhythms agrees with mine. For tsifteteli, you just selected the second interpretation.

As for what I mean with traditional tsifteteli. I just mean that all these words we use like tsifteteli, zeimpekiko, karsilamas etc are not rhythms but names of traditional dances. And the rhythms take their name after the dance. Therefore, tsifteteli is 2/4 because that analysis follows the melodies with which tsifteteli is danced. And that is the first example I give. 1/16 1/8 1/16 1/8 1/8

In the same way, the work 'zeimpekiko' doesn't have sense by itself. Also, without being expert, I think kamilieriko is a modern term. I mean, one of the 20th century.

Now for the zeimpekika and karsilamades. We have zeimpekika of 4 types, however in modern music we meet only the one you mention, or nearly only this one. The other zeimpekika types are classified based on their origin; I can get into more detail but I am not sure it is of much interest. By the way, we also have karsilamades of 9/4 which are called 'old karsilamades'. The best example of an old karsilamas is the song 'Pinw kai methw', altough it is not of Dalaras. One of Dalaras that comes to my mind is Kardia mou mhn paraponiesai, from 50 xronia rebetiko.

As for Pou 'nai ta xronia, that I said is a tsifteteli. I never counted it and I also agree with you that it is karsilamas. However, in front of me I have an interview of Stavros Kougioumtzis, I think it is to Eleftherotipia but I am not sure because it is a photocopy, where he says 'I have written everything from (...) to fast tsiftetelia like Pou 'nai ta xronia. That is why I said it. If anyone is interested in what the zeimpekika are, traditionally, I will be back.