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#21 Niki

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 05:36 PM

Pou nai ta xronia, is a karsilamas. I'm possitive about this... And Andreas, keep explaining... :razz:  :confused:  :razz:
"Often wrong, but never in doubt... "

#22 Geske

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 05:55 PM

Andreas... I got it! :razz:
on my fingers, slowly, but got it - I wish you could see the surprised look on my face, you'd laugh yourself sick!

How about this for an example: Πήρε φωτιά το Κορδελιό (from Μικρά Ασία - may I be allowed it, even though it's not Dalaras who sings it?). In the chorus the word tsifteteli gets the beat exactly like you explain.

Next dance please!! I'd love to hear about the karsilamas but 9/8 sounds... eh... complex?

Oh, and the zeimbekiko doesn't seem to have been mentionned here yet - what does that count as, please?
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#23 nikolas

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Posted 11 January 2002 - 07:37 PM

How to count...even musicians get confused sometimes, wouldn't we? anyway. 2/4 and 4/4 is not the point. Both can be counted for the same song. But the traditional tsifteteli is considered a 2/4 but indeed that has to do with how fast the beat is. (not sure that this is the right word for παλμός). In its traditional form, it is going like 1/16 1/8 1/16 1/8 1/8 but it could also be 1/8 1/4 1/8 1/4 1/4.

As for zeimpekika and karsilamades, both are 9/8 with diferent analysis. Karsilamas is 9/8, going like 2 2 2 3 and zeimpekika differ in the place where this 3 is. It is not in the same place for all.

Take the album 'Ta tragoudia mou'. Pente xronia dikasmenos is a karsilamas, Stin alana is a zeimpekiko while Oi kyvernhseis peftoune ma h agaph menei is a tsifteteli.
post hoc, ergo propter hoc

#24 Christo

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Posted 13 January 2002 - 10:44 AM

:D  :sarcasm:

  WHoaa!!!  slow down there people, you gusy are getting way ahead of me
  1st,
     to Nikolas a thank you for allowing me to contribute to these discussions and as I will begin a new thread shortly to Geeske's request.

 2nd,
  though I'm not certain as what Nikolas means by traditioanl Tsifteteli in 2/4 time
  I am certain though that the beat to count it off is 4/4 time
     i.e.   1,2 & 3, 4   1,2 & 3,4
      very similar to the example Andreas already gave us such as:
    Poom Pam, pam Poom pam  __   Poom Pam, pam Poom Pam
  if this makes any sense you can see how I derive 4/4 time out of this.

 3rd
     THe 9/8s rhythms are broken down into these classifications:
   1.  The ZEMBEKIKO  
        (1,2 & 3,4_5,6 & 7,8,9)

   2.  KARSILEMAS:
        1 2, 1 2, 1 2, 1 2 3
          or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
           or 1  2  3  4  5  6
           This is also a bit difficult to explain
            but its basically a group consisting of (3 two's and 1 three)
       hence the one-two, one-two, one-two, one-two-three count.
       And "Pou'ne Ta Xronia"     by Kouyoumtzis is surely the best example of this from Dalaras frist cd
  as is the song:
       "Ta Vasana Den Leyonte"   by Kaldaras
           from the cd '45 Strofes'
    Lost yet?

    3.   KAMILERIKO:
          This is another derivation of the Karsilemas rhytm with the exception  its played on a much slower tempo.
          Some examples of this
      are:
         "Stou Thoma To Mayazi"
           from the cd 'Live Recordings with Xarhakos'
              and
           "H Mantona H Salonikia"
              from the cd 'Kalos Tous'
  NOTE:
     Some Tsiftetelia believe it or not come close to the Kamileriko beat hence the reason & confusion of classifying it as 9/8
    Some song examples of this would be  'Pezoun Ta Baghlamadakia' by Hristakis or Tsaousakis
    and   'H Manges den Oi Parhoun Pia'  by Alexiou
   
   4. APTALIKOS:     this could probably be classified as 9/4
                 and  This one is yet the hardest to explain
       because its even harder to count
        and is played the least.
 With that said its best broken down
  as  1 2 3 4&, 5 6 7 8&,  1 2 3 4&, 5 6 7 8&
          Like I said difficult to count off.
         One song Dalaras sings an Aptalikos beat is in:
     "PAPATZIS"
       from the cd participation:  'Emeis OI Ellhnes'

and lastly
4th,
   I stop here for now because its late and I'm tired
 but the project for the new cd is still on its way
   That one is going to be difficult to count off the beats on every song  so at best I will just name briefly the style of rhythm as they are all not contemporay Greek Rhtyhms but of English, Latin and Jazz rhythms.

#25 nikolas

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Posted 13 January 2002 - 11:51 AM

Christo

If you notice, your analysis of the rhythms agrees with mine. For tsifteteli, you just selected the second interpretation.

As for what I mean with traditional tsifteteli. I just mean that all these words we use like tsifteteli, zeimpekiko, karsilamas etc are not rhythms but names of traditional dances. And the rhythms take their name after the dance. Therefore, tsifteteli is 2/4 because that analysis follows the melodies with which tsifteteli is danced. And that is the first example I give. 1/16 1/8 1/16 1/8 1/8

In the same way, the work 'zeimpekiko' doesn't have sense by itself. Also, without being expert, I think kamilieriko is a modern term. I mean, one of the 20th century.

Now for the zeimpekika and karsilamades. We have zeimpekika of 4 types, however in modern music we meet only the one you mention, or nearly only this one. The other zeimpekika types are classified based on their origin; I can get into more detail but I am not sure it is of much interest. By the way, we also have karsilamades of 9/4 which are called 'old karsilamades'. The best example of an old karsilamas is the song 'Pinw kai methw', altough it is not of Dalaras. One of Dalaras that comes to my mind is Kardia mou mhn paraponiesai, from 50 xronia rebetiko.

As for Pou 'nai ta xronia, that I said is a tsifteteli. I never counted it and I also agree with you that it is karsilamas. However, in front of me I have an interview of Stavros Kougioumtzis, I think it is to Eleftherotipia but I am not sure because it is a photocopy, where he says 'I have written everything from (...) to fast tsiftetelia like Pou 'nai ta xronia. That is why I said it. If anyone is interested in what the zeimpekika are, traditionally, I will be back.
post hoc, ergo propter hoc

#26 Geske

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Posted 13 January 2002 - 11:12 PM

Would it be ok to say that, generally, you may call a song a tsifteteli if you can dance the steps of a tsifteteli to that music? And so on, for the zeimbekiko and the others?

It's really helpful if you give as many examples as you can. You see, this brrbrrian is trying to learn to recognize them; and for that, it's great to have a _good_ example, but it's even better to have many examples, to "practice" on, if you see what I mean.

Christo, about the cd, if you just name the rythms for the songs that do have a typical Greek rythm (and ignore the others) - that's enough and plenty... And it doesn't have to be Η ασφαλτος..., you could do Μικρά Ασία instead, which is much shorter :D  (and doesn't have much jazz in it, does it :D ? )

And Nikola, about the zeimbekiko, I'd love to know more, but probably I'm too ignorant / unpracticed now to understand! You could try though.

Oh, and another thing - τα σμυρνεϊκα τραγουδια: is that another rythm, or a collection of them, or something else again?
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#27 nikolas

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 02:51 AM

Geeske, smyrneika are just from Smyrne...:D Although some use the term for those songs which in some ways are similar to those from Smyrne.

As for zeimpekika. The story is more having to do with folklore and dancing things because the rhythms is the same, although there are other details in the music that make them different between each other.

Very briefly, we have aptalika zeimpekika, zeimpekika from Aivali, zeimpekika from Pergamos and also Mpam. All are 9/8 like 3 2 2 2. (Karsilamades are 2 2 2 3). Most zeimpekika of today follow the form of zeimpekika from Pergamos.
post hoc, ergo propter hoc

#28 Geske

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 03:02 AM

Someday, you will _show_ me - won't you?
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#29 nikolas

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 03:54 AM

Someday, you will _show_ me - won't you?

Geeske, if you come to my wedding...:D
post hoc, ergo propter hoc

#30 Geske

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 04:04 AM

if you come to my wedding


:D  
now that would be great. That would be really, really great.
:D  
too much honor for the brrbrrian - but yeah... what a dream.
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#31 Geske

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 04:07 AM

Getting back on topic  :D
Christo described some songs as 'syrto or ruba' - eeh... we haven't had these yet, have we? is there a special description for them?
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#32 nikolas

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 04:17 AM

When musicians, so Christo as well, say syrto, mean 4/4. Am I right, Christo? However, every place has syrto songs, although the most famous come from the islands. Principally, syrta is a wide category of dances. Kalamatianos for example is one of them although it is 7/8 and not 4/4. Examples. According to the modern definition, 'Se koitazw kai xehnaw to onoma mou' from 'Methysmena tragoudia' is a syrtos. Christo, that is your job now!
post hoc, ergo propter hoc

#33 Geske

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 04:30 AM

O I see (sort of). Lovely song, that one.
Just wondering - the song, Methismena tragoudia - what kind is that? Please?
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#34 Christo

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 07:06 AM

:D

 Boy oh  boy oh boy
  you guys  are starting to get to technical now for me to explain anything further.
   :music:

 OK no Not really, it just seems like I try and asnwer every question as best I can and then 3 more turn up from my previous answer.  Sort of like a paradox that resembles more closely to George Lucas  Star Wars Trilogy
  :D  :music:    LOLS

   But getting back to your questions.
I found some score today (Greek Sheet Music and believe it or not the time signature for Tsifteteli was indeed 2/4)
 NIkolas my friend I stand corrected.

 However, the SYRTO  is also in the 2/4 time and not 4/4
 
 What we need here is someone who has danced in a Greek Dance Troop to come forth and explain the steps to us.
  I know a few of the dances myself but not all of them.
 And,
   heres an intersting note
    The way we dance to the Sirta here in the states is differnet as they do it in Greece (but and I do say but only in Athens and NOT in the villages)
  Don't want to criticize and Athenains here,
  but the last time I visited in Greece, I wanted to get some line dancing going at a club and the natives looked at me funny like as if they were saying among themselves,
     "Re file apo pio horio kai vlahos eisai soi"?

  Well it goes to show you that even among languages, dances too change over a period of time.
  The Athenians (Greeks who reside only in the city) dance the Sirto as the same way as that of a Tsifteteli or simply put Greek Belly dancing.)  No line dancing involved.

  And another intersting note my sister observed when she visited Greece last summer (and btw, she dances in a troop here in the states)  The Kalamationo which is correct that Nikolas said is in 7/8 time is danced almost the same here in the states as that of the Syrto with the exception that the feet go back behind in steps as you move in a circle.
 But the timing in steps is just about the same as that of the Syrto even though thats in 2/4 time and not in 7/8.

   What was interesting in that she observed after seeing Notis Sfiakianakis live in his club, on his famous song he released a year ago titled:
  'Na Haris'
   The Greeks in Athens were dancing to the Kalamatiano as yes a line dance but in totally different steps then how we dance them here in the US & Canada
  Hey Can't leave out my Canadian friends can I?
 NO I should say not.
   The point is when Greeks 1st emmigrated to North America
they brought with them all of their roots, customs, culture, religion, beliefs, recipes, etc., etc.,
  So when they started to teach their children & grandchildren  born and/or raised here how to Greek Dance.  500,000 or more Greeks overseas can't be wrong as how we dance them abroad Greece.
  I don't know why they changed styles in the 21st century and even before the Millinuem occured but thats probably a new and different topic to discuss.

   Getting back to the primary point of view,
 In the latter half of the 20th century abroad Greece,
 at Greek American/ & Greek Canadian Festivals,
 The Kalamatiano was re-known to be the most famous and Popular dance of Greece.  
 Today, its the Syrto
  why this changed??
    again unsure
   but its alot easier to make a hit today in the Syrto (Rumba) rhythm then it is to make for a Kalamatiano beat.
  In fact, up until Sfakianakis release his song
 'Na Haris'
  the last famous Laiko Kalamatiano was sung by
  Tolis  Voskopoulos
  with his song titled:
   'Dio Kardies"
        and that dates back from the mid 1970's.

   What I can tell you is the Nisiotika
   songs from the islands, about 90% or so
 basically consist of the Mpallos (a slow sirto)
   the Sirto itself and
   the Susta
     
Now the Sustas are like a fast Sirto and thats danced back and forth in 5 steps.  
  Greeks who reside in Crete
  have their music mostly in the Sustas but they are played very fastly  and have the name associated with them as that of the
  Pentozali dance.
   Pento for 5  hence the 5 steps
    and zali for dizziness  hence you dance so fast you get dizzy righy away.   LOLS  
         no pun intended to my fellow Ellines apo Kriti.

   Geeske,  its difficult for me to explain the names of the Greek Rhythms and dances, you're going to have to find a Greek Choreographer who teaches these dances in a troop to better answer those questions for you.
 At the very best though, I can quote you as many examples as I can,
  One last thing about the Syrto and why it has become more popular now then ever before.
  This rhythm has even changed and modifeid to a great extent somewhat from then from the  Traditional Dimotiko Sirto
  such as the song titled:
   "Oles Oi Melahrines"
           &
        "Ksekinai mia Psarapoula"

  The Sirta derived today from popular Laiko singers from Greece have changed the rhyhtm somewhat by adding
  "Kopsimata" mesa
   Meaning breaks, stops, accents and crashes throughout the verse, intro and chorus.
    So with that transition taking place
   THe Laiko Syrto became more closer to that of the Rumba rhythm.
   If you guys like
     Paschalis Terzis at all,
  his Syrta has alot of Kopsimata mesa
  such as from the song:
     'Ti Se Niazi'
and take the group
 Zig Zag
  with their song:
     'Ke Pes Ke Pies'
  and so on.
 

 ONe last thing,
  We wouldnt have such great popular Laiko hits today if it wasn't for the legendary  Bouzouki player and composer
Manolis Hiotis  & singer Mary Linda to come along and start this ever lasting genre to begin.  They really cleaned up the act and heres why:

To make a long story short in history,
  During the 20th century from the time of Asia Minor in 1922 or so, the greeks who emmigrated from Smyrne brung with them all of their roots & music and so on,
and we had for 30 years or so from that time the Rembeitka music.
  And we know of today that it was politically cenosred at that time because it had to do with drugs, sex, booze and so on.
  Hey sounds like things havent really changed all that much today,.     LOLS!!!

   But back then it was considered taboo and the Bouzoukia and its affiliated instruments, Oud, Baglama and so on had to play underground where the Rembetes were smoking Hashish from the Arguile.
    It was around the late 50's & 60's that Hiotes began writing love songs with a Latin feel to them
 (such as the song Dalaras sings by him
   'Perasmenes Mou Agapes')
    and so on with Mary Linda singing them from that time right next to him from one record to the next that the Bouzouki, and the Laika Music became popiular and thus now had a clean image associated to its name.  
  So with all that said every good or bad Laiko song & new singer arising has its debt to pay to the legendary Hiotes and his parea.
   
  This turned out to be a long letter again.  
 But when your discussing and describing historical knowledge via names, places, & dates you can't have a short paragraph to sum up its summary.

Geeske,
  Methismena Tragoudia will have to wait for another post
since this posting has already got to be way too long as it is now and besides
that song doesn't fit any of the Greek style of Rhtyms.

#35 Andreas

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 10:18 AM

And to all who haven't listened to Hiotis and Linda, please do so. Hiotis is an incredibly good bouzouki player and Lindas voice is one of the best ever used in music.
Went out last night just to take a little round.
I met my little Sadie and I brought her down.
I ran right home and I went to bed
With a forty-four smokeless under my head.

#36 Geske

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 03:23 PM

OOOOO... Christo, this is a bit more than I bargained for  :music:  :music:
Thank you very, very much for taking so much trouble over it! It will be while before I can follow all of that though.
And, about the song Methismena tragoudia, your answer "it's not a Greek traditional rythm" is quite enough for me at the moment...

It's interesting, what you say about the Greek dances in the States, how they have already evolved differently than they did in Greece. Of course, they are a living tradition, not a fixed dead thing: and living things change.
After all, what we know as Country Music also evolved out of something (mostly Irish folk music brought by Irish immigrants, I believe) and has now become a new, different thing.
So maybe Greek music will have some strange and unexpected descendants too  :D

Oh, and thanks, guys, for the tip about Hiotis and Linda Mary - praise like that from you, Andreas, means I'm not likely to forget to look for them  :D
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#37 nikolas

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Posted 14 January 2002 - 10:10 PM

Christo, what you say about the way dances are performed in US shows the confusion among people about these things, not only in US but in Greece as well.

When I said 4/4 or 2/4 as you said about syrtos, I was speaking about the musician's view. However this view is completely wrong. Syrtos is not a specific dance like kalamatianos is. It is a wide category of dances, the widest category in fact. Kalamatianos is a syrtos dance and it follows 7/8. In my place, Western Thrace, we have syrtos sygkathistos, another syrtos dance which follows, for example, 9/8 like 4+5 or 4+2+3, depending on how you want to count it. Syrtos of Makedonia is 7/8. We will get lost if we speak about syrta of all regions. In Epirus they have 2/4 and 3/4 in their syrta. And so on and so on. Musicians, to make life easier and also because most people know how to dance syrta from islands, play everything in 4/4 or 2/4 as you say, even kalamatiana. I could get in more detail if it is of interest.

Also, sousta and pentozali, both from Crete, are two different things, completely, two different dances. And sousta is a couple's dance. As is balos, which in fact is a fast syrto and not a slow one. We also have soustes in other islands. They are some kind of an even faster balos. Usually, in islands, all people together dance a syrto, when the music changes they form couples and dance balos and sometimes, in the end, when the music gets faster, they turn to sousta. Balos and sousta are couple dances. Syrto is not. With that said, Christo is 100% right about how musicians think abouyt syrtos and it is also true that this happens because most people know how to dance these syrta. But I want to point these things. In a few words, syrtos is not a dance, it is a category of dances with various different rhythms. No doubt about this.

Christo, I can't tell you how much I laughed with this

Re file apo pio horio kai vlahos eisai soi


:) :) :) :) :D :D :D
post hoc, ergo propter hoc

#38 Christo

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 04:40 AM

:)

  Nikolas  file
 hey I'm glad you found my Gringlish funny.
  You might say I'm an Amerikano Vlaho   Lols

 You know the topic on Syrta and other Greek Folk dances, man we could probably go on an on with that.  And when we can get some other members to comment on how the dances are danced, it will be even better.
  Speaking of Epirus  which I negelcted in my last reply,
 The Eiprotes too have a a certian way they dance to their music.

 i.e.  'To Fengari Kani Volta' & 'Astis Para ya Sto',
   that would be a tradional Ipirotiko style of dance & music in 4/4 time but when you hear the song 'Karagouna' played and 'Vlahapoula' (Especially from so many different renditions), they are usuaally sped up into a sirto which then turns over a 2/4 leash. Interesting isn't it?

  Not too meniotn the music from Thrace
   which Dalaras gave us in the cd "Mikra Asia"
    with the song: 'Giorti Zembekidon'
  That is a Zonaridiko style of Greek rhythm btw.
  and then you have the Pontes with their Pontiaka
  and the Makedonias  with the TIK and the LEVENTIKO
And so on and son
  I believe their are Greek videos sold from Greece from the legendary dancer & choreographer  "Dora Stratou"
  who teaches these steps from all parts and regions of Greece who better explains and interprets how and why there performed.
 
  And lastly, I forgot to answer your question from before
 the song Dalaras sings you mentioned
 'Se koitazw kai xehnaw to onoma mou' from the cd "Methysmena tragoudia"
  is indeed a Sirto
  but a Laiko Sirto  which btw this song is not that different then from the Dimotiko Sirto.

  And Nikolas
if you like Dimotika
What do you think of the Tsamika music?
  my favorite tsamikos from Dalaras is
   'To Peristeri'
   from  Kouyoumtzis  "Hlioskopoi"
 
 I don't about the rest of you but one of my dares in life would be to dance a Tsamiko with my buddies at the Acropolis.    Why because they are fun and lively so as long as someone as a good grip on your hand with the mandili(handkercheif), otherwise you'll fall and hurt your head.  
 LOLS

  then the greeks will really say,
 'Kale pios Vlahos einai  aftos'?
 or how about
   se' pio meros vyike aftos o vlahos?
 
 
:)

#39 Anna

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 07:57 PM

Christo, great job you're doing here, although it's not my topic, as I have two left legs!
And very interesting to read also Greeks have 'problems' to do the right steps!
Until now I thought this was only a problem for half drunken German tourists, trying to dance -of course- sirtaki!!

#40 nikolas

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Posted 15 January 2002 - 09:57 PM

Christo

I can try to tell you whatever you want regarding the way they are danced. At least, as far as my knowledge goes. Because there is so much to learn, no matter to what point or level you are.

Anyway. I have to tell you that karagkouna is not from Epirus. It is from Thessalia...so nothing with the style of Ipirotes. And it is performed only by women.

Also, the Tik you mention as being from Makedonia has nothing to do with Makedonia but with Pontos. So, you 'd better say 'the Pontioi me ta Tik tous' :)

Leventikos is not a classic Makedonian dance. It is spread only in Western parts of the region, specifically in Florina.

As for Dalaras and Thrace, a more typical zonaradikos is the song 'Vasiliki' from Iera Odos II. Also, the best to have a look at is the album 'ta aidonia tis Anatolis' where he sings traditional Thracian songs.

Regarding tsamika, no Christo, they are not my favorite  :) Instead, I prefer Tsestos from Thrace, which is by far more lively :) Also, since you mentioned Dora Stratou; she has done a lot of work and her theatre keeps doing it. But the idea they have given to traditional dances and songs is what in Greece we call 'folklor' and this has taken a bad meaning. It is the approach that makes 90% of foreigners who visit Greece to think that Greek music is Zorbas and Greek dance is syrtaki, which by the way is not a traditional dance. I prefer to stick to the authentic, only.

Closing, a good example of a tsamiko of Dalaras is from the album 'Ymnoi Aggelwn se rythmous anthrwpwn', again with music by Kougioumtzis. The part 'Kyrie ekekraxa' is tsamiko.
post hoc, ergo propter hoc



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