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nikolas

Not so "live" CDs of Dalaras

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In another topic, about Zygos songs, Maraki says:

I would like to add that some Live CDs include songs that arent recorded live but at studio! These songs have a special elaboration. But, From Heart CD is really a Live CD!

and this is a very interesting point indeed which I always wanted to discuss. Many live albums aren't actually so live. At least, if live doesn't only mean clapping in the end (then, I can make all Dalaras albums to be live, and that will not be a miracle believe me! :))

Ltet's focus on Dalaras. A night walk in Iera Odos, a CD single which contains three songs. Who actually believes they are live recorded...Nobody, not even Dalaras and Pyx Lax, that is why they don't say it is a live recording. Then what is my problem. No problem up to here. Let's take the full album, Live recording in iera Odos No1. The same three songs included. The same versions exactly. Listen to them. No difference. Oh yes there is one. Clappings in the end. And a dinstinct solo of drums in the beginning, definately seperate from the song which starts with fading clappings. Oh no, I won't buy it. Other songs of this album are live. No doubt.

My biggest problem is with the Live Recording in Iera odos II. With Frangoulis and Tsaligopoulou. Especially the songs with Frangoulis. Anybody that watched these nights live, can understand that Dalaras in this CD is much less lively than in real, and this is obvious (for us who watched them) in his performance. Not that there is a siginificant performance problem, but sometimes there are existing problems that you are not aware of before you notice them existing...and if you watched one of their shows, you would understand.

Fortunately, Zygos came really live! Διά ζώσης, to do it more Greek. :)

Thanks maraki for bringing this to our attention.

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I think that many (not saying all of them..) live cds that has been released the last 4-5 years (and there are really many ,, they have become the new trend/μόδα of greek discography of the last years..) have been procesed in many ways in the studio. The most common additions and processions are the corrections of some instruments (they are displaced and replaced by new instruments that are played in the studio) or the addition of others that weren't in the original live programm.. Some years before they (the procusers of a live lop/cd) considered that they should mention such a correction or addition: (look at the booklet of live CD of Attikon of 1991: "Nikos Antypas programmed and added electronic percussion (midi) in the studio" !!) :) Such a statement is very rare thing nowadays (and maybe funny).. as they should write a huge list of corrections that have happened in the studio after the "live" recording.

Except these additions/correction in the instruments, a more serious thing , however, is the recording of voices in the studio or in the best instance.. some corrections of the singing (some music phrases or some difficult coronas that they are recorded in the studio and added in the original live recording..). The even worse thing is the complete recording of a song in the studio and the addition of clapping in the end..

As far as Dalara's CDs is concerned, I have to say that the live performances (of the duets of Dalaras & Fragoulis) that I have attended in 1998 are much better than the versions included in the cd.. that are good but not very impressive.. But I have to mention that the songs were recorded during 3 days so it is very possible the final result is a colligation/conjuction of different recordings (eg. the first refrain from the recording 12 December .. the second refrain from the recording of 14 December) so the final result is not the perfect one as there isn't the best succesion..

I think that The Zygos CD is a completely different occasion as it is a really LIVE cd .. at least as the voice is concerned.. We can listen in most songs the voice and audience singing together in real time.. something that is really very diffult to be achieved by linking different recordings in the studio .... :)

------------

I have to mention here that I am a great fun of live recordings and live CDs in general, even when there are corrections on the songs.. The thing that I like most is the different orchestrations that even they are recorded in the studio (partially or completely) they have a live air inside them and of course I like the voice of the singer that is much more free.. Espesially as Dalaras is concerned .. in his lives.. he plays with his voice and does really great and indescribable things..

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I have in the last year participated in some radio recordings of concerts, and usually they try to take the concert as a whole, but they allow for changes to be made afterwards if some part didn't go very well.

Now, this is both good or bad. Noone wants a really bad version of a song, but if you redo the song afterwards, perhaps in the same place but without the audience, you lose the atmosphere.

I could imagine that some of the songs in live recordings actually are recorded in the right place and with the same musicians, but without the audience, because the artist(s) didn't feel pleased with the first recording.

Andreas

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:)

To further note I'd like to make a reference

that in the Live recording of 'An Yparhi Logos':

the song sounds live as you can hear the audience clapping in the background.

However, if one has ever seen the video-clip of this song, you will find a much different version in that the viewer is watching a movie with this song heard in the background.

An old woman is ironing her clothes yelling at her spouse while the TV shows a serial (or soap-opera) better portrayed in the states with Dalaras & Katsimihas hair short and slicked back with heavy Gel or Mousse. Yes a partial rendition to that of the Famous 'Blues Brothers'

for those who have actually seen the movie.

The picture of them is in black & While as if again portrayed in a soap

with no indication it was ever sung live in the Theartre 'Dimotiko' up in the Thessaloniki area.

Therefore it leads me to conclude that this version is a studio recording

yet we only have a Live recording of this song from the cd "An Yparhi Logos". I think Dalaras and Katsimixas should have released an earlier version recording of this song somewhere else along the way of his discography releases so we could have bought & heard both formats.

And lastly,

"H Eleui Eleuftheroi Ki 'Oraei" has been sung by Dalaras many times live in the past performances as it was a Hit of his to include always in his program for the last 10 yrs.

Funny though, it has never been released in a Live Version format a different mix if you will then the original studio recording we have back in 1986 with the CD "Trelloi kai Angelli".

It would be interesting to have this on disk recording as Dalaras lets the audience sing the latter half of the chorus with him finishing the last line just like in the song 'Paraponeman Loyia'.

:D

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Christo, I would not put my hand in fire about this, but as I have watched the video clip you are referring to, I don't think it is another version. I think it is the same. Maybe they removed clapping, that is not very hard...but the singing and everything else in the song (if I remember well which might be very wrong) are the same. SO I think it was the same, live, version.

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Can anyone tell me who is the man who makes the second voices at the song "Tou Votanikou o mangas" in the Zygos CD ???

It isn't Andreatos! That's for sure! But,..... who might be?? :D

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Christo, it is very usual sometimes to have a videoclip of a LIVE song that was not filmed in a concert but has a story, actors and a scenery like it was normal studio song..

Dalaras did that in the songs of IERA ODOS II cd:

the videoclips of LUNA ROSSA, CON TE PARTIRO, MIKRI PATRIDA and KARAVIA STIN STERIA have no shots from the show in IERA ODOS.. they were filmed either in the studio or outside in the open air (Kouva), nowever I don't remember if there are clappings at the end of the clips..

So it is very possible for the "An Yparhei Logos" to be recorded LIVE in Olympion of Thessaloniki (not dimotiko theatro! :D ), afterwards they filmed the videoclip in a studio with actors etc.. and they cut the clappings at the end of the song..

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Can anyone tell me who is the man who makes the second voices at the song "Tou Votanikou o mangas" in the Zygos CD ???

It isn't Andreatos! That's for sure! But,..... who might be?? :huh:

Maybe it's the same guy who's playing piano at the song: 'Ζεϊμπέκικο κορμί σου'!! :blink:

Apostoli, thanks for asking, I had already doubts about all these songs really live from Zygos!

And 'Amor-Amor' is this version live from Zygos??

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And 'Amor-Amor' is this version live from Zygos??

I can't find a reason not to be a live version from Zygos...

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Ok. Apostoli, I'll try to explain.

When I buy a CD which says it's a live recording from Zygos in April 2002, well I believe!

But, already the first time I listened to Anna Mpourma's song, I heard the piano and thought, maybe these days when they recorded, they had a pianoplayer on stage, but forgot to mention him on the CD!

And the very first time I heard Amor....Amor from CD I thought, the performances you heard at Zygos were even more powerfull!!

But ok. I didn't worry!

But now, as you are looking for the 2nd voice in 'Tou Votanikou o mangas'......and after reading all the comments how to record a 'live' or 'not so live' CD, I just had to add my thoughts!

But, maybe I'm totally wrong! :)

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Hmmm.... Have you seen the video clip of Amor - Amor? It's from the concerts at the "Theatro Gis" in Thessaloniki. So.... there might be a possibility that the version in the CD is from a concert in Theatro Gis... Just a thought.... ;):)

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:) my thoughts went the other direction.

I was thinking Amor...Amor is NOT live on the Zygos CD!

Well, I don't no about the technics they have, but without any noise from the surrounding?? Is this possible?

And about the 'power'!? Dalaras always sings with more enthusiasm when there is an audience! And the CD version isn't as powerful as in reality!

These were my thoughts!

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Well, you've cost me some sleep with all this discussion!

I wanted to listen to the recording really carefully, to try if I could hear what you are talking about. The best conditions available to me are: just before going to sleep (at night there is less background noise), with headphones from the discman (my better sound than my low-fi), in bed (lying flat on my back, best for concentrating).

Result? I took Από καρδιάς to bed with me last night and hop! an hour and half of my night's rest... gone!!!

Now I'm left with questions and no answers.

:blink: Isn't it true that however good a recording, it never ever approaches what we hear live? Especially in songs that hold a special meaning for us? Couldn't that be the source of Anna's disappointment with Amor-Amor?

:) If they record from the soundboard, would it be the case that they record every instrument separately, to its own track, and are able to change the re-mix them afterwards in the studio?

Someone who knows about recording techniques may be able to help here... Because it struck me, first: how lively and "together" the playing is, second: how clearly and "spatially" one can hear every instrument, and third: how the sound from the audience is not a "noise" but seems to be included in its own place like an extra instrument (and doesn't Dalaras play us as joyously as he plays the guitar...)

;) I have an unreliable memory of at least one the musicians, namely Zoe the accordionist, doing backing vocals. Can anyone confirm this, was it in Zygos or in Mainz, and did (or do) any of the other instrumentalists help with the singing as well? (Because in Του Βοτανικου ο μαγγας it wasn't Zoe, obviously).

Anyway.

I think I got as much rest from the listening, as I might have from the hour-and-a-half sleep. Lying there, eyes wide shut, I could literally feel Ζυγός around me: the shape of space, the black walls, that queer stuff of the table tops, the roughness of the chair covers... I could hear you guys that were there, your voices, the laugh of Areti's dad at the next table... and your faces, smiles, shining eyes... and the smoke, the wine, the slight draft when the doors opened... And him on the stage, sunrise, sunshine. I was there.

All that is not on the record but it's in my head and it comes out when I listen. A memory like that, and this imagination, it's a bloothy blessed curse!

Maybe από καρδιάς is not technically wholly live from Zygos, but it could have fooled me. In fact, it did.

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Geske, you caught me! I was preparing my reply when you sent yours! You put very interesting points! Personally, Im not so suspicious with the Apo kardias CD, it has won me! :music::music::)

***************

I made some thoughts about the CD and the comments that Apostolis and Anna have also made. Let me put them in order:

I think that its Andreatos the second voice at "Tou Votanikou o magkas and the reason that it isnt clear has to do with another -third- voice (Melina Aslanidous or Zoi Tiganourias who plays accordion and also makes second voice Geske, youre right about her!). It may sound odd, but I don't find another explanation!

I dont think that its a non mentioned person (as Anna has referred to), because Dalaras and his team are usually consistent and detailed with the mention of fellow workers names.

************************

About video clip of Amor Amor that Apostolis has mentioned, I think its enriched with scenes from Zygos and other concert(s), but these concerts have no relation with the version of the song in the CD. If I remember correctly, Amor Amor wasnt included in summer concerts before the release of the double CD. It happens, scenes from crowded audience of summer concerts are included in many video clips of live recordings in order to be carried the atmosphere of the Live. ;)

*************************

Anna,

I agree with you, the version of the Amor Amor in the CD isnt the most powerful! However, I believe that its indeed a live recording, but a bad choice of the available recordings. At least, according to our criteria! :blink:

I also heard more carefully To Ζεϊμπέκικο κορμί σου. I didnt discern (with my very little instrumental knowledge) pianos sound. Maybe the similar sound has to do with pliktra (keys, in English, I think) Kostas Sindridis and Christos Kemanedjidis play pliktra.

*****************************

About Live CDs and not so Live CDs:

I really like Live CDs for warm atmosphere, directness, powerful introductions etc (christos-regnis put it wonderfully). And I feel a little deceived when I realise that the CD I bought as a Live one is a maimou Live!

I consider that chemistry singer audience and songs versions of a successful Live programme or concert (a programme or concert that people really loved) should be carried identically in the CD (if we want to be called Live). I think characteristic examples (among others) of really Live CDs are Apo kardias and O Erotikos Theodorakis.

******************************

Looking in my live recordings of Dalaras, I wondered about the Live character of Skoni (music: Termites) which is included in the collection Τα χρώματα του χρόνου 2. I like very much this song and I think this version is the best. Despite the good result, I have the impression that its been processed. Does anyone know about it?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nikola, I think the title of topic inspired by Maraki is too heavy!

:rolleyes:

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Maraki, I agree with you on both essential points:

I'm not so suspicious of Από καρδιάς

and I dislike it when a recording is too fake.

About Tou Votanikou O Mangas, I couldn't swear if it is Andreatos or not. I listened again, and really, I can't say. I don't know his voice well enough.

About Το Ζεϊμπέκικο κορμί, I have this memory of Ζυγός, of Anna Bourma sitting behind the keyboards herself, and playing her own accompaniment to the song.

And can't some of these keyboard things pretend to be a piano, if you push the right button? (Christo would know that, I'm sure).

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:)

Geske

you are correct girl.

There are Good keyboards available on the market that are built and designed to function as fully loaded music workstations that give and play the same Ambience sounds to that of a full Grand Piano.

And when you have a Keyboard with weighted keys,

there is no difference in the sound quality then

except for the appearance.

:blink:

Geske

I'm impressed

good job

See what good synthesizers can do today!

They fool us but give us what we expect to hear too!

;)

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To further note I'd like to make a reference

that in the Live recording of 'An Yparhi Logos':

the song sounds live as you can hear the audience clapping in the background.

However, if one has ever seen the video-clip of this song, you will find a much different version in that the viewer is watching a movie with this song heard in the background.

Something like "Kalosorisma"::

I have watched these days the videoclip of the song: "Sto Idio Ergo Theates", something like "Kalosorisma" happens in it too..

The videoclip version of the song ends at the point where the two artists welcome the audience of their show in the ATTIKON: "Na po ston kosmo, mia diki mou, mia diki mou, kalispera.." just before the last refrain which is ommited at the videoclip..

The phrase "mia diki, mia diki mou, kalispera" was sanged again as it is different from the live and there are NO clappings.. , they must have sang this phrase again in order to avoid the clappings that there are in the original version over their words.. :wow:

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