Ο παλιός στρατιώτης

[Geske 37]

I was convinced that I had posted this long ago, but it doesn't seem to be in the translation forum anywhere, or at least I can't find it. So here goes: better twice than not, anyway, considering the great song it is.

Another one that's easier to sing along to, than to understand! And once understood, it's tough to get into reasonnably literal, but still accurate, English. Anyway, I did my best...

Ο παλιός στρατιώτης | | The old soldier

Μουσική: Λαυρέντης Μαχαιρίτσας | | Music: Lavrentis Machairitsas

Στίχοι: Ισαάκ Σούσης | | Lyrics: Isaak Sousis

Οι φόβοι σου κι οι φόβοι μου | | Your fear and my fears

στο ίδιο το τραπέζι | | [laid out] on the same table

στη μέση το φαρμάκι μας | | in the middle [sits] our poison

γλυκό σαν πετιμέζι | | sweet enough for syrup

και μέσα του σαν ζάχαρη | | and inside it, like sugar

να λιώνει αυτό τ' αστέρι | | about to dissolve, that star

αυτό που πρώτη η αγάπη μας, | | the one which our first love

μας έβαλε στο χέρι | | left on our hands.

Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή | | You are not, for me, under an obligation to live

και θαύματα δεν κάνω | | and I do not work miracles

μα αν μου ζητάς καρδούλα μου, | | but if you ask me, my little heart,

για σένα να πεθάνω | | to die for you

και μία δεύτερη φορά | | and a second time too

σαν τον παλιό στρατιώτη | | like the old soldier

θα πέθαινα αγάπη μου | | I will have died, my love

καλύτερα απ' την πρώτη | | better that the first time

Κι αν μένει ακόμα νόημα | | And if any meaning remains at all

και μισοερειπωμένο | | even half-destroyed

μεσ' στα ερείπια αυτά | | in the middle of this devastation

μαζί σου εδώ θα μένω | | with you, here, I will stay

μέχρι να 'ρθει η άνοιξη | | until the springtime returns

και να μας ξεπουλήσει | | and rids us of the remainders

και μέσ' από το θάνατο | | and in the middle of death

ζωή να μας χαρίσει | | gives us life

Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή | | You are not, for me, under an obligation to live

και θαύματα δεν κάνω | | and I do not work miracles

μα αν μου ζητάς καρδούλα μου, | | but if you ask me, my little heart,

για σένα να πεθάνω | | to die for you

και μία δεύτερη φορά | | and a second time too

σαν τον παλιό στρατιώτη | | like the old soldier

θα πέθαινα αγάπη μου | | I will have died, my love

καλύτερα απ' την πρώτη | | better that the first time

[gazakas 0]

Some remarks ,Geske:

-αυτό που πρώτη η αγάπη μας :the one that first our love(it means that this star was put in our hands in the first place by our love)

-Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή :(simply) You don't promise me (a) life

-θα πέθαινα αγάπη μου : I would die my love (if this wasn't a song the right syntax of the phrase should be : αν μου ζητάς ,θα πεθάνω or αν μου ζητούσες ,θα πέθαινα)

-και να μας ξεπουλήσει : I don't know if it is a mistyping or a misreading ,but it's clear that this verse goes like:και να μας ξεκουνήσει(and whips us up(?)),meaning to wake us up from this situation

-και μισοερειπωμένο/μεσ' στα ερείπια αυτά :even half-ruined/ in the middle of these ruins

-και μέσ' από το θάνατο(and from the death)the connection with Christ's resurrection is obvious

That's all!

[Geske 37]

Some remarks ,Geske:

Thank you always for your help :blink:

αυτό που πρώτη η αγάπη μας :the one that first our love(it means that this star was put in our hands in the first place by our love)

is my translation grammaticaly impossible, then? Somehow it seemed to make more sense than yours...

Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή :(simply) You don't promise me (a) life

The song is about a double suicide, remember? I think what the sentence means is: "you have made no promise, or debt, or commitment, to me, that forces you to live". But it's very difficult to put that in a neat English sentence that stays close to the original construction.

 θα πέθαινα αγάπη μου : I would die my love (if this wasn't a song the right syntax of the phrase should be : αν μου ζητάς ,θα πεθάνω or αν μου ζητούσες ,θα πέθαινα)

ποητική αδεία, right?

και να μας ξεπουλήσει : I don't know if it is a mistyping or a misreading ,but it's clear that this verse goes like:και να μας ξεκουνήσει(and whips us up(?)),meaning to wake us up from this situation

It's a mis-typing, and not even mine, since I didn't type the Greek. The cd-booklet agrees with you, btw. How about translating it as: "until Springtime comes and shakes us awake"

 και μισοερειπωμένο/μεσ' στα ερείπια αυτά :even half-ruined/ in the middle of these ruins

I'm not sure if it's more accurate or just sounds nicer...

και μέσ' από το θάνατο(and from the death)the connection with Christ's resurrection is obvious

Is it? I was thinking more of Persefone, considering she really lives in the land of death, and comes as surely as Spring comes.

But then I never liked the christian mythology particularly.

[gazakas 0]

Endangering to become scholastic,a few remarks on Geske's remarks on my remarks:

- αυτό που πρώτη η αγάπη μας: Geske's translation would be correct if the line was αυτό που η πρώτη αγάπη μας.The difference between η πρώτη αγάπη μας and πρώτη η αγάπη μας is a very distinct one: the first means "our first love" and the second "our love did smth first/before anyone else did it".Speaking in grammatic terms,"πρώτη" in the first case is "επιθετικός προσδιορισμός" and "κατηγορηματικός προσδιορισμός" in the second.

-Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή: Different interpretations.Very usual.

-θα πέθαινα αγάπη μου :yes,ποιητική αδεία :blink:

-και μισοερειπωμένο/μεσ' στα ερείπια αυτά :I don't know if my suggestion sounds better ,but it's surely more accurate and it keeps the repeat of ερείπια

-και μέσ' από το θάνατο: I'm afraid Geske that I will disappoint you here;the "christian mythology" ,as you call it(Borghes say something about the art of insulting that applies perfectly to this phrase),is very dominant in the greek poetic thought .Besides, the greek-orthodox hymne for the Ressurection goes like that:

Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών ΙΙ Christ rose from the deads

θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας II crushing death by death

και τοις εν τοις μνήμασι II and giving life to those

ζωή χαρισάμενος. II (that lie) in the graves

Isn't it obvious?

[Geske 37]

Scholarly you are, but not scholastic, and I am enjoying.

if the line was αυτό που η πρώτη αγάπη μας

you're telling me exactly what I wanted to know.

Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή

Does this mean that in this case, my translation is acceptable grammatically? If so, I'm glad, because it gave me some trouble :blink: !

και μέσ' από το θάνατο: I'm afraid Geske that I will disappoint you here;the "christian mythology" ,as you call it(Borghes say something about the art of insulting that applies perfectly to this phrase),is very dominant in the greek poetic thought .

Hehehe... beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the saying goes, but insult is the hearer's ear! "Mythology" is the only technical term I know for the consistent body of stories and beliefs, that underlies the spiritual and artistic life of a community of humans. That the Christians should consider their mythology as the truth (αληθινός μύθος), and all others as lies (παραμύθια) is their idea, not mine... no offense intended, though I know that Christians, (like most, if not all, monotheists), are very quick to take offense when anyone doubts their superiority.

However, this has nothing to do with the poem.

You are right, of course. Obviously, Christian thinking about resurection is very important in Greek thought, and equally obviously, the poem can be read to refer to it. You are perfectly right. But it's not the only possible reading - in fact, you can see both Jesus and Persefone in it at the same time, and Osiris too, if you like, and every other resurection myth. The more the merrier

If we wanted to know which one the poet had in mind, we'd have to ask him. If we wanted to know which image come to the mind of each reader, we'd have to ask them...

[gazakas 0]

You asked, so I have to answer :

Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή

I think that there is a way to include both interpretations in one translation changing only two words: "You don't promise me to live(=that you will continue to live) OR a life (=that you will give me a life good enough for me)

As for the Ressurection pattern ,it's clear that it is something we can find in many religions monotheistic or not and everybody is allowed to make as many connections as she/he can.As you put it "the more the merrier". I was just pointing the most obvious connection and what the writer had probably in mind.

Now,about the term "mythology" I agree it's a sufficient term , but the insult (not for me -I'm not a very religious person) is there for a greek-speaking christian, not just because the word "μύθος" in Greek is always connected with something fictitious ,but especially because here is the very esssence of the Greek-Orthodox dogma concerned: Ressurection, that is, the way Christ defeated death and gave hope and salvation to the people. Of course there is a corpus of stories and beliefs about Christ, christianism, the Saints, the Church etc. that even Christians consider it as "mythology" ,but of course the formal term is tradition(παράδοση,and the same term is used for the unwritten laws of the Church). Finally, I believe that the term "theology" is better in two things: 1)It's not insulting for anyone and, 2)It's still a neutral term ,meaning that we don't have to agree with the religion in discuss.

[Geske 37]

Since Antometrios brought up this song in the topic "misjudged songs",

I am finally getting round to posting this translation, as re-done by gazakas and yrs truly sometime last February. I've learned some Greek since the first attempt, and his English always was the best of all my Greek friends' (except one), and most importantly, we both love language and grammar - so here's thanks to him for all the fun we had overhauling all the songs in Η άσφαλτος που τρέχει ! And yes, I will post it as a booklet some time.

For starters, here's the Old Soldier.

I'm not claiming it's "the" translation, but it's definitely better than the one in the book of The Running Roads (international release of Η άσφαλτος). The problem with texts like this is that many grammatical constructions in Greek have no direct equivalent in English, or, worse, the direct equivalent has a different meaning - hence the non-litteral appearance of some of the verses, though we stuck as close as we could.

Ο παλιός στρατιώτης_____||_____ The old soldier

Μουσική: Λαυρέντης Μαχαιρίτσας_____||_____ Music: Lavrentis Machairitsas

Στίχοι: Ισαάκ Σούσης_____||_____ Lyrics: Isaak Sousis

Οι φόβοι σου κι οι φόβοι μου _____||_____ Your fears and my fears,

στο ίδιο το τραπέζι_____||_____ there on the same table,

στη μέση το φαρμάκι μας _____||_____ with our poison in the middle,

γλυκό σαν πετιμέζι_____||_____ sweet enough for syrup,

και μέσα του σαν ζάχαρη _____||_____ and inside it, like sugar

να λιώνει αυτό τ' αστέρι_____||_____ dissolving, that star,

αυτό που πρώτη η αγάπη μας, _____||_____ the one which our love, before all else,

μας έβαλε στο χέρι_____||_____ put into our hand.

Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή _____||_____ You are not promising me life,

και θαύματα δεν κάνω_____||_____ and I work no miracles.

μα αν μου ζητάς καρδούλα μου, _____||_____ But if you ask me, my little heart,

για σένα να πεθάνω_____||_____ to die for you,

και μία δεύτερη φορά _____||_____ even a second time,

σαν τον παλιό στρατιώτη_____||_____ like the old soldier

θα πέθαινα αγάπη μου _____||_____ I would die again, my love,

καλύτερα απ' την πρώτη_____||_____ better than the first time.

Κι αν μένει ακόμα νόημα _____||_____ And if any meaning remains at all,

και μισοερειπωμένο_____||_____ even half-ruined,

μεσ' στα ερείπια αυτά _____||_____ in the middle of these ruins,

μαζί σου εδώ θα μένω_____||_____ with you, here, I will stay

μέχρι να 'ρθει η άνοιξη_____||_____ until the springtime returns

και να μας ξεκουνήσει_____||_____ both to shake us awake,

και μέσ' από το θάνατο _____||_____ and through death

ζωή να μας χαρίσει_____||_____ to give us life.

Δε μου υπόσχεσαι ζωή _____||_____ You are not promising me life,

και θαύματα δεν κάνω_____||_____ and I work no miracles.

μα αν μου ζητάς λατρεία μου, _____||_____ But if you ask me, my beloved,

για σένα να πεθάνω_____||_____ to die for you,

και μία δεύτερη φορά _____||_____ even a second time,

σαν τον παλιό στρατιώτη_____||_____ like the old soldier

θα πέθαινα αγάπη μου _____||_____ I would die again, my love,

καλύτερα απ' την πρώτη_____||_____ better than the first time.

edit: I corrected in the text, for ease of reading, the typo spotted by Panos

[panosb 0]

I'm not claiming it's "the" translation...

καλύτερα απ' την πρώτη | | | better that the first time.

It is very good this time.

But probably you had a "typing" mistake:

καλύτερα απ' την πρώτη | | | better that the first time

It should be "better thaN the first time".

[Geske 37]

definitely a typo

thank you Pano!

[vitaly2 9]

Another one that's easier to sing along to, than to understand!

I am ashamed but admit I haven't even tried (as many other songs yet). Although I have "the running roads" CD with translations but probably because of my deep distrust of translations of poetry in general I never looked at it! Until the NA-C tour, and then I've come by chance to the topic "Unfairly judged songs" and read very interesting suggestions by Antometrios which lead me to the current translation topic dedicated to this song.

I don't like to leave the topic closed with the following conclusion:

great thing about poetry is that there isn't necessarily a correct interpretation.

So, set on the solid base of the previous discussions, I would like to make the following contribution:

It seems by listening to Dalaras that he knows perfectly well the correct interpretation! It means it does exist. OK., that's encouraging... At first, I thought that γλυκό φαρμάκι means "sweet wine" (which can be a poison if you drink too much) but that sounded too much like a meeting of AA

Then I noticed a little piece of grammar which I believe had not been paid attention before: the particle να before λιωνει. So, the author must have said: let it dissolve in the poison?! Another thing concerns the particle και in the preceding line: as I remember from reading an interesting grammar book with numerous examples from various island dialects (unfortunately, it went back to the library), this particle is very versatile, in addition to AND, it can mean virtually everything, eg. SINCE, SO, etc.

Conclusion: I would translate στη μέση το φαρμάκι μας γλυκό σαν πετιμέζι because (και) μέσα του σαν ζάχαρη

να λιώνει αυτό τ' αστέρι .

Finally, it comes to the following:

Two people put on the table their fears and uncertainties about continuing their life together. Between them is a cup filled with their bitterness (distrust, disappointment), and the author (man who seems more determined to save the situation than his mate) suggests: let's sweeten this bitter cup by dissolving in it like a piece of sugar the sweet star of our past devotion given to us by the LOVE.

Since she still has second thoughts, he says: I am aware that you are not promising me currently that you will devote your life to me, and I can't do miracles to make you love me again, but

my love to you is still as strong as before when I promised that I love you to the point of being able to die for you. I am even more ready to prove the same the second time.

marriage may be viewed as the death of an individual and also as his rebirth as one joined to another.  

Interesting thought - may be true, but the idea not to my liking (as an engineer by education I prefer an image of an ideal marriage as a couple of equal molecules connected with a covalent link - kept in place by constant exchange of electrons - sorry for a diversion...)

In the next strophe, I agree with Geeske about the rebirth mithology, only this idea is nowdays so closely associated with the change of seasons, that I would prefer keep to the latter: spring will eventually come and wake us from the winter hibernation, and revive our frozen feelings from the death-like indifference...

Thanks for your attention

[Geske 37]

...I have "the running roads" CD with translations but probably because of my deep distrust of translations of poetry in general I never looked at it! ...

The translations in that booklet are full of mistakes - even worse than mine. Especially in the not-straightforward songs such as this one. Just a friendly warning...

[Geske 37]

About the να before λιώνει: it's true that να is maddeningly versatile. In this case να λιώνει expresses the continuous process, in French they have it very neatly too: "en train de fondre". In English it means "in the ongoing process of dissolving" which of course is too ugly to be written.

As for γλυκό σαν πετυμεσι I think you are looking for more than there is. He's simply calling the poison (all that's wrong with their relationship) "sweet like syrup", that is, unhealthy, cloying, sickening, even addictive. And "what love put into our hands" is dissolving in it, that is, whatever good they had is being absorbed into the poison.

Since she still has second thoughts, he says: I am aware that you are not promising me currently that you will devote your life to me, and I can't do miracles to make you love me again, but

my love to you is still as strong as before when I promised that I love you to the point of being able to die for you. I am even more ready to prove the same the second time

I agree with that.