25.06.1995.

[NIKH 0]

if god existed it would be an IT.

and I am not interested in how the humanity got alcoholized by religion, but am as to why. I have my own theory which is not so much my own, but makes sence, and I want the sence in my mind as well as in other's. Anyway in one serious poll 65 of Europeans stated atheists, whatever it means to them. For me it means the absolute lack of any idea or purpose in cosmos. Everything is a consecuence of the matter in action during time. The mater and time never started, they were are and will be and in this sort of exixtence the matter is in action or reaaction or intraction with other groups of matter, having the gravity quality built in...

But as I said, cooking tomorrow,when my son is comming back from somewhere, swimming when i find a better company to go to the sea since I cannot talk to the sea and I don't like talking, or listening, to just anybody, or making love tomorrow, are my choices, after Dalaras, of course, not that I would mind doing all the three things for and with him... I prefer my son, Dalaras and some people here, to any religious talk , except from a learned and unbiased person.

Religious people, in my mind, towards us, atheists, ar like smokers to unsmokers, agressive with their ideas and rights. They think that things like religion and smoking are selfunderstood. GELASTIKAN VARIA!!!

[celeste 0]

. I prefer my son, Dalaras and some people here, to any religious talk , except from a learned and unbiased person.

Religious people, in my mind, towards us, atheists, ar like smokers to unsmokers, agressive with their ideas and rights. They think that things like religion and smoking are selfunderstood. GELASTIKAN VARIA!!!

Are you saying that I am biased, Nikh? Then you got the absolutely wrong picture. I'm not a religious person, and I consider a good talk on religion as interesting as politics, specially unbiased talk about americans. Don't get heated up and read carefully what I write. And learn that I am a very provocative person, almost as provocative as Nighthawk (I say almost because sometimes he can be a pain in the...). I just think that as this forum is open to everyone, and certainly people from different beliefs, religiously or politically speaking, it can be profitable to know what the others think, as long as no verbal aggression is done and one doesn't try to impose one's own view on the others, thinking it's the only truthful one. As far as your word "learned" is concerned, I'm not as dumb as you may think though I'm certainely not the cleverest girl in town BUT I'm a playful one.

And by the way, I SMOKE!

[francois 4]

Religious people, in my mind, towards us, atheists, ar like smokers to unsmokers, agressive with their ideas and rights. They think that things like religion and smoking are selfunderstood. GELASTIKAN VARIA!!!

I don't know if they "gelasthkan varia", but many "religious" people or smokers (or drinkers) are like that !!!

On the other hand, I know religious people who are respectful of other people and who are very good friends (some of them on this site, of course! )...

[francois 4]

if god existed it would be an IT.

I don't know if there is such "thing" as a god, but if it does exist, it has got a bloody good job, but can't even do it properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nighthawk 0]

Debating religion, arguing about religion might just be the hardest thing of all, I guess even more than politics. Personally, I have a profound belief in God. Not in the Catholic God, not in the Orthodox God, not in any other particular God mainly built by men and their organizations. There's a basic philosophy to every religion and usually religions were created to:

a) Humankind's spiritual need of self-justification;

b ) The political and social need of organizing decent societies in a better way than if it were simply organized by the army or the police - in a word, making order out of tendencial chaos.

I can see that a lot of people declare themselves to be atheists. So, why do you argue with God? Have you lost your mind? You cannot argue with an entity that does not exist. I can see those people feel, very often, deceived by a God that would supposedly be a Great Father in Heaven and take care of us all. I would too. And I do, everytime I give God human thoughts, human needs, a human form, human anything. But it may just be that there is a God and He isn't human at all. It would simply suit us all fine if He were... and if He took good care of what we wish were His responsibilities. Well, maybe those responsibilities belong to the men and women of this world. From all I know, even Jesus always stressed His kingdom was not of this world.

So, I like to mix religions a little, in their essence, for all they may have that's mainly positive. All the rest may just be human wishes and rituals...

For all I know, then, there may even be a God of which we are a part (and therefore important as every part of a body has its main and simultaneously relative importance to the whole) but He may not even be aware of each of us individually. Or... as the defenders of reincarnation put it... maybe we simply choose the kind of life we need to live and God won't interphere with our choices. That way, he'd make us important. But since this is a world of hard work, there are always very many ocasions in which we could blame God for everything we do, either as standalone persons or as communities, smaller and larger.

Well, I always try to be positive, at least whenever I'm able. And that strength can many times be found in Christianism or in Budhism, for example. When, I can't... well, I suppose it must be my own fault - but I always learn something from it (I hope)...

Just my two cents or it would never end...

[NIKH 0]

I understand you perfectly well Celeste and don't think that yu are either agressive or dumb.

I will try to explain what I meant by both terms, 'learned' and 'agressive'

Here the word learned I used as a synonyme for a person who has successfully studied at high school at least, the positive sciences and therefore can argue another on scientific grounds. Therefore, whoever says that god is senced, felt and such, I refuse to speak to such....There should be mutual terms, like in the court of law, but the religious don't want that since they neccessarily loose the trial there... Suposing Marsian came here and asked what is god and how do we know it is there, I would try to convince the Marsian that the LACK of anY scientifis solid proof says it all, while the religious would take his BOOK as it is GRANTED to be a proof. THIS discussion should begin from zero, tipota dedomeno. And we then find no god, but are both, I and the religious one put in front of the BIG GUESTION, FROM WHERE ALL THIS AND WHY. Why is a wrong guestion, this is why it has no unswer and certainly it is not neccessarilly god that unswers why and how, and from where and when and what before the start, since our lack of knowledge and understanding of all this,especially the why, means nothing, who are we to know, yesterdays animals we are!!! Why has no unser since in cosmos there is no purpose but only consequence, and as to when, it is sensless, since the time without matter has no meaning, it is an ALWAYS, but once there is matter in space, time has meaning since matter moves, also space has no meaning without matter in it, so it is the MATTER that is our question, from where is it and I say it is from nowhere since there is no other cosmos, matter simply is and it is hard to understand it only for people who have no good education in positive sciences which deal with matter, or for people who think that man is a superior creature made by god, so that he should understand, and since he cannot he invented god as an explanation for all the lack of understanding of how cosmos is or may be while we don't know it. I have no problem in not understanding how the matter IS but not BECAME, because I don't have a high self esteem of myself built on nothing or little as most do. The third reason for inventing god is fear of loneless being left alone after birth and on top comes deth with nothing after, since the sould is the result of the chemical and physical actions and reactions in the body, once body dies reactions stop and no soul any more, simple but frightening, not for me, though......I am tired of telling them all this for ages now and they keep attacking, like when I say I don't believe in god they ask why insted of me asking them why they believe in something thaey cannot prove with no means. varethika.

Most smokers are agressive, not neccessarilly you, Celeste. You smoke your own health but polute my atmosphere too...a bit...that much for me for now......

Nighthawk, I don't think I said one single word to make you tell me that i argue with god, if you told this to me. I argued with Olga who took her book out , quoted something andk this way tried to prove something.....

Of, course that I have nothing with the unexistent god.

[nighthawk 0]

Not really, I was mostly speaking in general terms...

[celeste 0]

Most smokers are agressive, not neccessarilly you, Celeste. You smoke your own health but polute my atmosphere too...a bit...that much for me for now......

I'm glad things cleared out. I understand your reasons but don't forget that there are scientists and intellectuals who believe in God and do not think it a contradiction in terms. Or to put it in other words, believing in God doesn't mean beeing a lesser person, or a moron.

As for my smoking, I don't think my cigarettes have such a long-distance range, as far as Greece! Anyway, I respect the views of non-smokers and usually I try to avoid smoking near someone who doesn't appreciate it. I'm not a fanatic as some are, but I also don't appreciate the radicalism of non-smokers.

Anyway, I don't like radicalism of whatever kind. AND I'm radical on this!!! :lol:

[NIKH 0]

Non smokeres are not radical IN WORD.

IF YOU SMOKERS ONLY KNEW WHAT WE NON SMOKERS FEEL ABOUT YOU!!!...

We share this among each other.

And about your cigarette spoiling my atmosphere, I was speaking figuratively, diladi, you spoil the air of the non smoker next to you and the smoker next to me spoils mine.

BUT, even a very distant smoker, far away from me as is the Earth's diameter, spiols my air in a very small percentage, which can be brought ALMOST to zero, but NOT TO REAL ZERO...

And of course that I am not speaking about in room smoking but about the open air smoking when wind or draft often bring the smoke right to a nonsmokers nose, and even without it it, spreads everywhere.

It is poluting the Earth.

It is having no sonsciousness about the others and the future people.

And now you said that nonsmokers ar agressive. Maybe I am, but not as a non smoker. Makari na imun...I wish I were.

This is THE REVERSING OF THE THESIS....

[nighthawk 0]

Wow! Surely cigarette smoking is harmful but just try to find out how many dangerous substances you get from the cars and buses on the streets that you walk in, the pavement itself, the factories that manufacture everything that you buy, the things that you buy and use and I don't mean simply all the garbage that you eat and drink (and I may include here much of the so-called healthy food)... Do you think they couldn't have found possible substitutes for many of those already? The whole world is guilty of an economic health crime! Well, try to find out about those and then maybe you can share all your new feelings...

Edit: And, btw, we are indeed speaking of things unrelated to Dalaras in a part of the forums that should be about Dalaras... I've just read about that in some other part of the forums and I guess I must agree: even though it's possible to go on doing things like that anywhere it also brings about the risk of chaos.

[NIKH 0]

Of course that you are right about the general crime against health, me included, but I am specially angry with smokers because I had married one, who was a drinker too...ALL MY FAULTS, I KNOW. End talk.